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Dwarf Supreme	Post subject: Maksim's Blog: Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:09 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm Posts: 11149 Location: Canton, CT, USA	Quote (primarch @ 16 Nov. 2005 (19:40)) I find it odd that I, someone who has no interest in Epic A, should be the one pointing these things out. Primarch, I think it's easy for you to point these things out since you are a neutral observor. ? ?I'm a pragmatist like you and it seems that we have pretty much the same view of GW. Although I don't think GW has dumped E:A yet, it certainly is on life support. _________________ "I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart
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primarch

Post subject: Maksim's Blog: Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:08 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi! Well, ?lots to comment on. It's hard to say that we have been "ditched" since we really have no idea what is happening. But what more proof do we need? GW doesnt make public or release statements saying they are dumping a game. It just happens. The only objective measure are actions. There has been little to no action as of late. Reducing (to not say non-exsistant) support, pushbacks of releases that should have occurred by now and a lot of "silence" lately. If we are waiting from some official say that its "done", we'll wait a LONG time. We don't know that for sure. Jervis managed to get E-A to print after noone thought it could be done. Who is to say that he can't get E-A back on its feet again? You, Peter?

Yes, in fact I do. They've said there will be no more printed books. Releases are being pushed back, support is drying up, beyond these forums there is NO "buzz" on the net about it. Could I be wrong? Sure. Statistically speaking nothing is impossible. But I safely state it IS improbable.

*** Why don't you step up to the plate, Peter? ***

You've already done this before and you care.

Fair question. Becuase I have no passion for Epic A. This sort of thing needs passion to be done right. It deserves no less. Epic A fans have that. They need to provide that direction. If I did it it would be a "side show" to NetEpic. Epic A doesnt deserve that. It needs to shine on its own. With its own format, and different people to guide it.

I fully realize that as far as epic goes, my vision is narrow and very old school. Epic needs a new vision and guidance. I dont think I have it in me to provide it.

I haven't been idle, Peter.

I dont mean idle in respect to any individual, nor you directly, but as a group of fans. While I think you personally as well as others like Neal and such would be ideal to lead such a effort as netepic A, it is a group effort. While you may want and like to do it, if you dont get help or if there is not interest in such a thing, no one can expect you (or anyone else) to do it alone. The fanbase for epic A is what I view as "idle" in a holding pattern so to speak awaiting what will "happen" if anything will ever happen as far as the company goes.

Regarding Planetfall, as I mentioned I think you SHOULD place your efforts there. AS you say its your game and your in control. Its a lot more rewarding to work on that that a game from a company that doesnt support you much. So we're in full agreement there.

One of the hard facts is that Epic is GW propoerty. I can't do anything with Epic without their permission... no publishing, no "official" miniature line, nothing. And I don't think they'd sell or allow a license to go to a smaller company. So, I've gone one step further:


I think you misunderstand me. I am not advocating a comercial venture. Thats what you Planetfall project is for. I'm talking fan based endevours, which you dont need GW's permission for as long as their IP guidelines are respected (a netepic equivalent project). I mean compile, re-write, re-format, change, or whatever else fancies that fan base and throw it up on the net. Lots of that work is done or in process. After all you are creating and playtesting it currently without much heads up from GW and there's no guarantee they'll ever use it, so its pretty much belongs to those who put the effort in it. Simple matter to put it up for downloading and support it.

There can be a fine line between pessimism and pragmatism.

Only you know which one towards which you are leaning closer.


Oh, I thnk we both know which I'm closer to...

Yes, I'm a pessimist as well as pragmatist. They go hand in hand with me usually. But yet, I have not been proven wrong....

In a matter of speaking, guys like Neal and I have more faith in Epic than you do, Primarch. We both invested in seeing E-A happen. You have mostly sat back and been pessimistic about it. Some of your pessimism has been well justified and some of it might be turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you speak ill about someone long enough, there is tendency for that ill thought to come true whether or not it was true in the first place.

You're a big Epic supporter, Primarch, don't get me wrong, but you also haven't had the faith needed to bring about a new Epic golden age. Guys like Neal, Pixelgeek and I are trying for that. And we've seen a number of successes. We finally brought about new minis... and even rule books. Jervis isn't down for the count yet.


Extremely valid point. I made my decision not to get involved with the new game once it was obvious the marketing and support wasn't really going to be there. Of course when that was obvious will vary from person to person. But to me it was pretty easy to spot very early on. Epic's success, for good or ill, depends less on "great rules" and more on GW throwing its weight behind it and pushing the product. The objective proof is in epics past history. SM2/TL, for many may be much less elegant or refined than later rules, but it had the backing of GW and thus succeeded. Later rules did not have this support and thus did not succeed.

So its NOT enough, that you or me or the rest of us on these forums support Epic A. IF the company does not support it it will die (in the commercial sense of course).

Jervis may be not be down for the count, but he is not the owner or CEO of GW. He's just and employee, he must follow company policy and deal with what management tells him. I know he has great ideas and hopes for epic as well as for other fanatic games. But he doesnt control the budget or the companies priorities. He may say "yes" to epic, but if GW says "no"... its NO.

I love Net-Epic and don't get me worng, Primarch, but I want to develop something that can be more than Net-Epic. I want something that I can hold and produce and not have to skulk around and hope that GW lawyers don't shut me down because their lawyers think that I've violated their perceived intellectual property. Net-Epic continually exists with that hammer over its head. That's not my cup of tea.


I may have not made myself clear. I'm not advocating you shunt aside Planetfall for a netepic A project. Given the choice, as I have pointed out, you DO YOUR OWN GAME. I think you percieve that I am stating you (or anyone else) should put aside your personal projects to do netepic A. NO. All I'm saying is that IF no such project like netepic A is born, Epic A will slowly slide into oblivion. That would be a sad thing.

The issue of a netepic A is a separate issue. It does belong to GW and it is not intended as a commercial venture. Its purpose is to continue to support a version of the game people like independent of the comapny who no longer allocates resources to it. In comparison to making your own game its small goal.

Hmm.. re-reading my original post I can understand if you thought I was questioning you personally, why you havent taking this up. I should have been more clear and general in my assertions. When I said "you" it is in the context of "all of you epic A fans". I apologize for that. I didnt mean to put you "on spot" like if this sort of project is your sole responsibility.

I suppose at some point some group as fans will do it. I do have some optimism in that regard.

Primarch