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Tau News

 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:40 pm 
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If you are confused about the intended role of Kroot in 40K, then join the club. ?GW seams to base its armies both around a concept, and a historical time era. ?To me, the Tau are the imperial French/English in the new world (New England/New France [Canada], the British colonies that become the US are the Farsight Enclave, and will separate after their own version of the Boston Tea Party). ?Claiming the land in the name of the King, thus making all those who live there subjects of his Royal highness. ?Heck even the democles crusade resulting in all the new territory for the Tau, stinks of the 7-Years War and the acquisition of New France to the British. ?The Tau too find themselves in control of a large amount of pre-established colonies with an alien culture. ?They even setup fur trading posts to trade with the locals. ?In battle they form discaplined gunlines with their long rifles, and use Indian support as both a terror tactic, but also for the element of surprise and there brutal closecombat prowress. ?The natives are also used as scouts, trackers, even bounty hunters. ?Just as Kroot are.


RD, this is a very interesting comparison of the two systems. I like the analogy and think it quite appropriate. At a macro level, this works.

Where I probably diverge from your view is what happens when we get to the battlefield. I see core Tau formations operating very much like an American Armored Cavalry group, sometimes incorporating Y'ards to support the overall effort (but primarily as forces who deny objectives to the opponent by their presence).

I also see something very Japanese in the conduct and character of the individuals. This might be the Buddhist influence that you mention.

Anyway, very thought provoking. Thanx!




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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:49 pm 
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Yep ... ACR with SF and 'Yard support ... that's the way I see it !  (Like Hammer's Slammers; Drake, served with the 11th ACR in 'Nam !) :D   And of course the Bushido Code and Buddism is very Tau-ish ! :;):

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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:15 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 11 Nov. 2005 (05:19))

I don't like upgrades only commanders should be "Upgrades" ... I'd rather see the Contingents & Upgrade list combined into an "Attachment" list, ie. these should be independent formations.  Providing the commander max flexibility.  This is the way we handle all Infantry and their APCs/IFVs ... once the Grunts dismount, the transports become seperate det(s). (like in real life !).  So I'd rather see a Tau Cadre (Fire Warriors or Battle Suits) with 0-5 Contingents attached


I see. Well, from the game perspective, this is definitely an area where our lines of thinking diverge.

I do not see E:A activations for Tau being limited to what you can get in a cadre plus upgrades (or attached contingents in your text)

I very much like the feel and precident in E:A for main formartions plus supplimental formations.

I'm a VERY big fan of the upgrade mentality for both main formations and contingent formations as it allows for diversity and flexability. These give longevity to a list and avoid it from becoming a very boring 1 or 2 types of lists.

I really like the WIP Tau v4.2.4 list from a choices, contingents, upgrades, and air caste perspective. I think we flesh out how the army works quite well. I think the alien aux could use some work, Narwhal formation could be considered for upgrades, and miscl units will likely still require tweaking, and then there's the vespids... but from a pure formations, contingents, and upgrades for each concept - and the choices available - I think we're closer to perfection than we've ever been!

I would be very dissappointed if we were to consider a complete rework of formation, contingent & upgrades for each. That would not only start us over from scratch, but it would take the army in a direction I could not support.

Cheers for elaborating L4,

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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:33 pm 
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Well we are talking basically about the same thing only employing it differently ...  We use activation and have since '90, it's the best way, IMO ... But only Commanders/ Specialist (Chap., Lib., Techs, etc.) become part of the unit (Cadre in Tau-ese). The others are independent dets/formations.  So In my Tau, a F/W Cadre would have, Devilfish and attached commander (Ethereal or O'Shoa) then you could take  0-5 Contingents (Hammerheads, Pathfinders, etc.)per Cadre, plus 0-1 Kroot or Gue' and 1/3 of your points on Air for the overall Tau Force ... But I understand, your feelings ... We use modified SM1 & SM2 TO&Es and that's basically how we do it.  But I don't expect any one to change over to our methods, but that is how we do the other armies and that is how I'll do my Tau TO&Es.   Once I get them done I'll post them just for FYI.  But like I said we're doing basically the same thing only different ! :D   And as always do what works for you !

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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:30 pm 
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L4,

As far as E:A from games design perspective goes, Jervis said a single E:A formation loosely represents a 40K army and a single engagement equates bascially to a 40K game. Therefore, upgrades to cadres and contingents makes sense.

Agreed, gota do what works for you and your group! :)

However, in development - we have a responsibility to do what works best for tournament games, the common pick-up game scenerio and what the average gamer would assume are the majority of E:A games that he/she will encounter across the globe. (campaigns and house rules excluded).

I see what you are saying about how your group does it. Our group manipulates the lists all the time for campaigns. Our last campaign was a blast and we had some great fun mixing two allying lists on occasion even. We do tend to stick to the organization of how individual formations are put together though. Well... except for that time were we had AMTL titans supported by tanks - heh, special scenerio that was a blast.

But I digress,

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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:13 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 11 Nov. 2005 (15:33))
But only Commanders/ Specialist (Chap., Lib., Techs, etc.) become part of the unit (Cadre in Tau-ese). The others are independent dets/formations. ?So In my Tau, a F/W Cadre would have, Devilfish and attached commander (Ethereal or O'Shoa) then you could take ?0-5 Contingents (Hammerheads, Pathfinders, etc.)per Cadre, plus 0-1 Kroot or Gue' and 1/3 of your points on Air for the overall Tau Force ...

The thing which sometimes irks me with "customizable" contingents is the difficulty of justifying them from a RL military perspective. If I read L4 right, the idea is to play with platoon-sized blocks, just like a RL US Army battalion CO would (not that I know anything about that :p ). You do cross-attachments with your Mech and Tank companies, ending up with e.g. a Tank-heavy team of 3 tank platoons and 1 mech inf platoon, further supported by some Forward Observers and Engineers. In this way of making war at the battalion level (Epic level), you don't play with single squads. Your company COs can use the additional blocks, but your platoon leaders can concentrate on fighting their platoon, instead of babysitting some unfamiliar attachment.

That said, the contingent upgrades in the 4.1 and WIP 4.2 lists are pretty simple; they're generally more of the same or a flak vehicle, instead of fancy complexities.


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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:26 am 
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Yes Tac, I understand, I had no intention on changing any one's mind but just give my take on it ... But as I said generally we agree on most T&K stuff (ORCA, Manta, Kroot, etc.!)  :D  And yes Assura you are basically correct !  As a Mech Co. Cdr, my Co. was cross attached to the Bde's Tank Bn. And I cross attached one of my Mech Plts to a Tank Co. (M60s) and one M60 Plt was attached to my Mech Co.  So you see where we are coming from ...   A Tau F/W Cadre (= plt.) in Devilfish (= IFV) could have 5 Contingents; in our TO&Es.  Upgraded units in E:A (3 per Cadre), activate with the original formation, in this case the F/W Cadre.  Our technique is these units would be independent and be activated separately like with Contingents (2 per Cadre) in E:A ... so that's where we got 5 attached Independent Contingents ...   So yes, Assura is correct, we basically activate by platoons ... You Did your homework Assura ! :8):   Again Tac, "Do what works for you"!  And in writing official Dogma - go with what Jervis wants !  I get where you're coming from !  :cool:

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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:54 pm 
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I don't see the Tau as having such a rigid structure above platoon level.  In fact if you look at the cadre orbats in IA3 they are are all different seemingly with resources being allocated to cadres as needed.  

Actually, I think this is partly a nomenclature issue:  What the list refers to as a cadre isn't what IA3 calls a cadre.  Their cadres are closer to an entire Epic army lead by one Shas'el.  What we call cadres (FW and Crisis) are more like contingents, several of which go together to make a cadre.

(More on this when I have IA3 in front of me.)

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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:45 pm 
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I don't see it as a rigid structure question so much as at what level and how units are activated. ?Again Tac, makes a good point, Jervis wants E:A to ?"mirror" 40K ... ?So Cadre upgrades activate when the Cadre does ... Where Contingents are independent ... ? Cadres = platoons in Terran-ese (8 five F/W teams = 40 troops; 40 in Plt., 4 B/suits = an AFV Plt.) ?Most Contingents = plts or squads. ?So whether you activate plts w/upgrades or independently ... it's all a matter of preferred "technique" ... We don't play or like 40K (rules) so our vision, experience(w/activation since '90), predilection and ?preference is with independent platoon activation. ?Not trying to be a "Doppelganger" of Jervis's "40K vision/addiction"! :D ? That being said, the written official Dogma should be as Jervis requests ... but as I repeatedly say ... Do what works for you. ? I'll make up some Tau TO&Es, which I was planning to do sooner or later, and as I said will post them just for the exercise (and my edifacation!) ! ? :;): ?So the short description of a Tau Force is a Cadre of 8 F/W Teams(stands) or 4 B/suits plus up to 5 attached formations (of "Upgrades" and/or "Contingents") and 1 Kroot or Gue' formation. Then 33% of the TAU Total Battleforce Level points going to Air Caste (units). ?If I am reading the list/rules correctly ? ???? ? ?But as I think about it Col. S, makes a good point, 40K rules (in this case army lists), conflicts with Epic lists ... again if I'm reading "the Col.", correctly ? ?Just like Jervis wants an Epic Firefight in E:A to = a 40K game ? ? So it's not hard to see "that being all things to all people" ... may be easier said than done ! ?:laugh: ? But Do what works for you ... not me ! ?:alien: ?And produce the best set of official T&K rules as possible !




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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:44 pm 
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Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 12 Nov. 2005 (13:54))
I don't see the Tau as having such a rigid structure above platoon level. ?In fact if you look at the cadre orbats in IA3 they are are all different seemingly with resources being allocated to cadres as needed. ?

Well, they certainly do operations bigger than what a single Cadre can accomplish. The organization does not have to be rigid, but it does have to be there. The Tau do planetary invasions and plan their operations across multiple star systems. You don't do that with cadres. You need something larger, at several levels. It can all be specific to certain Tau septs, but even mid-sized septs can muster so many cadres that they just can't use cadres as the biggest piece in the puzzle.

GW fluff generally does not address anything beyond tactical level, which is understandable, but it doesn't mean that any good treatises of war in the 41th millennium would not address operational and strategic concerns. The mere logistics associated with fighting grav vehicles must be a huge task and simply saing that a caste takes care of it doesn't answer the question.


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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:15 pm 
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Gentlemen,

Considering its an alien race which is changing and evolving faster than any known race in the 41st millenium, I don't think applying imperial standards or structure to the Tau warfare modus operandi is necessarily the right approach.

We do know that the Tau cadre is not equivilent to plattoon, battalion or any other RL structure. Cadre to the Tau, in fluff, is a battleforce if anything. Its an organization of several troops aligned to fight in a particular tactical engagement together. This is where Cadre comes from.

In 40K, this is represented by a single force org chart. Force org chart requirements force a minimum, 1 HQ and 2 Troop choices to align with the game structure and mechanics. A cadre in 40K is therefore a single 40K force org chart and players of 40K will realize that a 40K force org chart is based upon units, not E:A formations and has both mandatory and optional elements. For refrence, a 40K org chart is up to 2500 points of 40K units and looks like this:

1-2 HQ (note, some mandatory elements)
2-6 Troop (note, some mandatory elements)
0-3 Elite
0-3 Fast Attack (FA)
0-3 Heavy Support (HS)

So if we look at a 40K force org chart - that could be 1 HQ character and 2 Troop units at minimum in order to have a cadre in 40K...

1 HQ = Ethereal model
Troop1 = 6 Firewarriors
Troop 2 = 6 Firewarriors

(For reference: That would equate to 2 E:A units with a character upgrade in a unit)


As a 40K Tau Cadre could all possible choices with fully maxed out units, a 40K Tau Cadre could also look like this:

HQ1 = Shas'o + 2 drones + 3 crisis + 6 drones
HQ2 = Shas'o + 2 drones + 3 crisis + 6 drones
Troop1 = 11 Fw + 1 Shas'ui + 2 Drones + Devilfish
Troop2 = 11 Fw + 1 Shas'ui + 2 Drones + Devilfish
Troop3 = 11 Fw + 1 Shas'ui + 2 Drones + Devilfish
Troop4 = 11 Fw + 1 Shas'ui + 2 Drones + Devilfish
Troop5 = 12 Human Auxiliaries
Troop6 = 19 Kroot + 1 Shaper
Elite1 = 3 Crisis + 6 Drones
Elite2 = 3 Crisis + 6 Drones
Elite3 = 5 Stealth + 1 Shas'ui Stealth + 2 Drones
FA1 = 8 Gun Drones
FA2 = 4 Tetras
FA3 = 7 Pathfinders + 1 Shas'ui + 2 Drones + Devilfish
HS1 = Railgun Hammerhead
HS2 = Ion Cannon Hammerhead
HS3 = 3 Broadsides + 6 Drones

(for reference, this would equate to something like 20+ E:A stands of troops/infantry and, 2 tanks, 8 APCs, and 4 LV tetras - or 34 E:A units)

Now, from a game play perspective, we know E:A doesn't look at 40K and simply port it over, it does uses that established franchise as a basis though.

We also have a precident from several other lists. Their 'companies', mobs, or 'core' formations in E:A aren't necessarily legal force org charts in 40K either. Their upgrades usually allow them to get quite close though.

So we have to take some creative liberties in E:A list development and be mindful that E:A is a differnet game from 40K - that's true. We also have to be mindful that we have a franchise, a precident from other E:A lists, new unit types in E:A that don't exist in any other part of the franchise due to the scale increase, and overall balance / game play considerations to manage as well.

We also need to realize that E:A is not historical battles. It's not Napoleonics, WWII D-day, Roman Phalanx tactics, US modern warefare, cowboys and indians, or whatever... - their are games which are designed specifically for all of that.

For better or worse, this is the 41st millenium of a Games Workship universe. Outside of established precidents within that universe - its all make-believe and fanciful constructs which we all love to varying degrees (BFG, E:A, 40K, etc). It has nothing to do with battalions, platoons, etc beyond what a given make believe race believes in. IG are all over this way of thinking for example. Chaos, Dark Eldar, Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Orcs on the other hand could give a crap about such philosopies!

The 41st millenium is an established franchise which uses 40K as its basis. BFG, Space Hulk, and Epic are all extentions of this franachise as 40K battles are scaled or put into new environments. As much as it may hurt some of us to contemplate such possibilities, it is the reality or fantasy realm, we are working within.

In this regard, the army list for E:A Tau WIP v4.2.4 as well as IG, Orcs, Swordwind Eldar and Black legion 3.7 for that matter, work at a formation level with an upgrade mentality, effectively function in the E:A game system Jervis has created, and fit within these other constraints and established precidents we have the responsibility to adhere too.

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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:37 am 
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Given that Tac has pretty much covered the organisational issues from the 40k army list and Epic game balance perspectives (the latter of these has to take priority in any decisions made) I'll now try and give a view based on the account of operations on Taros given in IA3 - which isn't written from the perspective of any particular game and is by far and away the best background information available on the Tau way of war we have and must inevitably influence our understanding.  (Don't worry folks, I'm not losing touch with reality here - I'm fully aware that I'm talking about a game of toy soldiers set in a made up universe whose background is as consistent as a schizoid chameleon. But we all got a hobby.)

Whilst the account doesn't follow the usual GW practice of presenting an official Imperial history it is however, written from an Imperial perspective and so remains somewhat vague about the exact details of the Tau.  The information is essentially presented as the results of the Imperial intelligence gathering operation and whilst I don't think it lists the full Tau presence it's as good as we have.

There was only one Aun confirmed as being present on Taros, Aun'Vre, who was killed by an Imperial assassin during operation Deathblow.

The information on the Fire Caste presence is limited to the projected table of organisation for Contingent El'Shi'Eldi.  This is described as as being "a temporary organisation of between three and six Hunter Cadres" with command being "granted to the most experienced Shas'el" which may also "be accompanied by promotion to Shas'o."  Each Hunter Cadre is lead by it's one Shas'el (and each is listed as having one of the Crisis commander variant suits).  The full TO&E for the contingent is listed as follows:

6 Shas'el (1 per cadre)
12 Shas'vre (2 per cadre)
124 Shas'ui
428 Shas'la
175 Kor'vesa (Drones, heavy drones, sentry turrets and sensor towers)

14 Hammerheads
15 Devilfish
4 Skyrays
5 Piranha
10 Tetra
60 Crisis
15 Broadsides

I'm not going to list the all the six cadres (you'll have to buy the book for that) but they are all similar in nature to Hunter Cadre Shi'Eldi which is as follows:

Shas'el Shi'Eldi (XV84)
2 Shas'vre (XV8)
21 Shas'ui (12 XV8, 6 XV15, 3 XV88)
8 Shas'la pathfinders + 2 tetras
68 Shas'la Fire Warriors + 3 Devilfish + 1 Piranha
2 Rail 'heads, 1 Plasma 'head, 1 Skyray
24 Drones, 6 Heavy drones, 2 Sentry turrets

Air caste assets are less clearly defined.  Imperial estimates put the number of Barracudas at 120 and 40 Tigersharks.  The projected TO&E of a single Air Cadre is listed as:

36 Air Caste
2 Mantas
4 Tiger Sharks
10 Barracudas

Orcas are not listed as being part of either Air or Fire caste TO&E but are mentioned as being used to insert Stealth teams in Imperial rear areas under cover of night and one was used to land a small team on an Imperial air strip.

However, despite being great background, none of this really fits the Epic list :(

Orde





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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:49 am 
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Well at this point, I'm sorry I said, I wasn't happy with the Tau Army list !  :oops:  The list works and that is the official way the E:A Tau will work ... And I fully understand that the lists (IG, SM, etc.) reflect the 40K Universe ... as best it can... :/ And the official lists/rule reflect Jervis's guidance ... I'll remember this in the future  ! :;):  :alien: "For the Greater Good"   :D

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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:25 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 13 Nov. 2005 (06:49))
Well at this point, I'm sorry I said, I wasn't happy with the Tau Army list !  :oops:

That's OK, L4.  It's good to have things like this questioned from time to time, it helps to keep everything on track and makes sure we're all paying attention.

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 Post subject: Tau News
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:18 pm 
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That's OK, L4.  It's good to have things like this questioned from time to time, it helps to keep everything on track and makes sure we're all paying attention.


Well stated.

L4,

I'm glad it all was brought up and discussed. It only helps to make sure we're all on the same page.

Good conversation Sir,

cheers,

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