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Stealth Teleport

 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:51 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 09 Nov. 2005 (20:42))
I know its not perfect math - but if I have 6 rolls, and each has a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 1 due to the 6 sides, each dice therefore has something like a 17% chance of failure on each roll (rounding)... I know its not a simple as multiplying the 6 rolls times the 17% chance for failure, but its likely enough for me to say "I'll probably have a blast marker if I do this" and go from there.

Actually, it *is* pretty simple. The odds of *not* getting a BM with a single roll are 5/6. The odds of getting that six times in a row is just 5/6 multiplied by itself six times. You're just not thinking like a mathematician, is all... ?:p

On the roughly 1/3 odds of getting no BMs, it definitely means that you plan to get one or two BMs. However, getting no BMs happens often enough so you want to take that into account and capitalize on it when it happens.

(Edited to fix a typo)






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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:21 pm 
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Does the formation have to be 6 units?


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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:43 am 
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Quote (asaura @ 09 Nov. 2005 (21:51))

On the roughly 1/3 odds of getting no BMs, it definitely means that you plan to get one or two BMs. However, getting no BMs happens often enough so you want to take that into account and capitalize on it when it happens.


Asaura,

I'll drink to that.  :D

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:44 am 
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Quote (Dobbsy @ 09 Nov. 2005 (22:21))
Does the formation have to be 6 units?

No, and its to early to tell for sure, but it does seem to work properly thus far. Right now, we're just kicking around what they can be used for and how you will be able to work with them. I think the concensus is they have uses, you just have to be careful with how and when you use them.

Now, if you want to invest more points in it, there's always the 3 stealth upgrade. That of course means you invest more in a tactic that has many of the same concerns.

Less than 6 models will make the formation uber fragile though. Definitely don't think that's viable.

Plus, the goal is to try teleport without changing a bunch of other stuff about the formation.

In that people are talking about the formation and trying to figure out a way to make it a valid fit into their battle strategy is a good sign. Its got some new flavor and there seems to be value in that.

I think its a tricky formation to use, but I also think the addition of teleport makes them have some uses worth more toying around. Keep in mind, their not meant to be the drive it home end all be all Tau formation. If they do whats outlined in the fluff of the formation, we've done our job IMHO. So far, I for one think we are on the right path here.

Cheers,





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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:06 am 
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Keep in mind, their not meant to be the drive it home end all be all Tau formation. If they do whats outlined in the fluff of the formation, we've done our job IMHO


True. Also I've been thinking about the discussion on MLs in the other thread in regards to this too. If you are suppressed, MLs are still usable at present, correct? So if they come down with blast marker(s) the Stealth boys will still be able to paint a target with MLs - which makes them very handy regardless of the blastmarker issue.





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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:14 am 
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Dobbsy,

Agreed, the blast marker will not affect the ML. Therefore, if that's how you are using the stealths, you shoudl be in good shape as long as you get the initiative.

Blast marker point was not an issue, just something to be mindful of when discussing tactics with the Stealth. As such, the Blast Marker may still be relivent though if you wish to do other things or if you do not get the initiative.

The blast marker may still have relivence if you get charged, if you get shot at, if you try to activate the stealths, or if you go to shoot the Stealths at an AP target, if you want the stealths to participate in a CF... etc.

Again, not an issue, just something to take into consideration depending upon how you intead to use them in your battle strategy is all.

cheers, :8):

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:57 am 
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Well Honda's USMC Recon anology is valid, IMO ... (I've run many Recon patrols while in the Army !) ... with more playtesting we should know for sure ... but I like the Teleport option !

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:59 pm 
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In the fluff Stealth units are rare and specialist units that are used to disrupt the enemy's rear / flank areas and scout + teleport seems to fit this.  Even if this makes them somewhat limited in their possible uses and fairly high points that should not be a problem, if your battle plan calls for Stealth units then paying the points shouldn't be a problem but they shouldn't be a 'must have' Tau unit for all situations.

Orde

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:40 pm 
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I'll second Col_Sp.

EDIT: except on the rare part.





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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:51 pm 
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In the fluff Stealth units are rare and specialist units


I would offer for consideration, that Stealths are "elite and specialist" units vs. "rare". My reasoning (besides the Codex entry), is that they figure quite prominently in IA3 story line.

I don't know that I'd say that they are as plentiful as Crisis, and certainly not the standard Fire Caste Warrior, but I'm not convinced yet that they should be labeled as rare.

My two yen...

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:04 pm 
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Honda is correct I dont believe stealth are considered "rare".  Its somewhat a matter of symantics, but the Ordinatus is described as "rare" and the stealths are far more numerous than the ordinatus (ordinatii?).


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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:51 pm 
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OK, seems like "rare" was a bad choice of wording but it's all relative.  I wasn't implying rocking horse stool rare, more like less common than other Tau troop types (Fire Warriors, Crisis, Broadside, Pathfinders), both in terms of numbers and in usage. I suspect many Tau armies will feature most, if not all, of the above units - the proportion that have stealths, and the number of stealth units (where present), will be less.  (Although there will always be exceptions where the army is based round lots of stealth suits...)

Whilst I agree that they did play a significant role on Taros, I certainly didn't get the impression that there were a lot of them and their main use wasn't in Epic scale battles, more like 40k scale engagements.  I get the impression that the stealth units in theatre were ferried round in Orcas during the cover of darkness to maximise the effectiveness of a limited asset.  They are more like elite special forces units - certainly not something you would describe as "common". :p

Orde





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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:15 pm 
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Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 10 Nov. 2005 (19:51))

...I wasn't implying rocking horse stool rare,


+ + + searches archives collected from sympathetic imperial agents of the Greater Good + + +

rocking horse stool doesn't appear in even early gothic low speak...

:8:

more like less common than other Tau troop types (Fire Warriors, Crisis, Broadside, Pathfinders), both in terms of numbers and in usage. I suspect many Tau armies will feature most, if not all, of the above units - the proportion that have stealths, and the number of stealth units (where present), will be less.

I'll buy that.

 (Although there will always be exceptions where the army is based round lots of stealth suits...)
Yes, and a good game of 'kick the newby' is always fun every now and again. ;)

Whilst I agree that they did play a significant role on Taros, I certainly didn't get the impression that there were a lot of them and their main use wasn't in Epic scale battles, more like 40k scale engagements.  I get the impression that the stealth units in theatre were ferried round in Orcas during the cover of darkness to maximise the effectiveness of a limited asset.  They are more like elite special forces units - certainly not something you would describe as "common". :p

Orde
No more rare than your US Navy Seals, and the alike. Common enough to be in every major conflict on multiple fronts within a given battle, but not necessarily in every skirmish and engagement.

...now from memory, and see the 40K tau codex for further background... but again from memory:

Battlesuit technology as a whole is very common to the Tau.

The stealth suits are very similar to crisis in commonality/rarity and are the smallest suits.

A Firewarrior trained well will earn the right to progress through battlesuit technology training starting with XV15, moving to XV8, and then XV88 - those that achieve higher learning may earn the right for commander retinue in an XV8 again or possibly even receive promotion to XV8 commander rank ('el or 'o)

I could have the logical all messed up here, but that's my understanding of things... at the moment... from what I think is memory... ;)

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:54 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 10 Nov. 2005 (20:15))
+ + + searches archives collected from sympathetic imperial agents of the Greater Good + + +

rocking horse stool doesn't appear in even early gothic low speak...

Rocking horses are not known for the amount of excrement they produce.  Real horses on the other hand...

 (Although there will always be exceptions where the army is based round lots of stealth suits...)

Yes, and a good game of 'kick the newby' is always fun every now and again. ;)

Given that I fight scenario/campaign based battles rather than tournament games there are occasions that a stealth based army would be the ideal choice. For example if I was attacking a supply column at night. :cool:

more like less common than other Tau troop types (Fire Warriors, Crisis, Broadside, Pathfinders), both in terms of numbers and in usage. I suspect many Tau armies will feature most, if not all, of the above units - the proportion that have stealth's, and the number of stealth units (where present), will be less.
I'll buy that.
So you're saying that they are rare when compared to other Tau infantry. :p

@Everyone: Can we now leave the exact semantics of common and rare behind, please?  Much as I love arguments discussions over semantics this is not the time, place or pertinent issue here - Thanks

I've got Codex: Tau and IA3 open in front of me and I can't find anything in either about the battle suit training ladder and how XV15's fit in.  However, IA3 does confirm that Shas'ui that have been trained in the use of the XV8 can transfer to XV88's.  Experience in a Broadside is considered important before promotion to Shas'vre, again no mention of Stealth's so no explicit help there.

My impression was that there was little crossover between Stealth and Crisis pilots as, despite both being battle suits and, unlike Crisis and Broadsides, they are very different in terms of form and function.  Stealth's are described as the lone wolves of the Tau army and team leaders are described as being somewhat eccentric and are renowned for employing new and unpredictable tactics - not particularly Tau.  However, to maintain the greater good it is necessary to include 'rogue' elements as complete uniformity would lead to a stale society and, it seems to me, that the best way to manage these elements is to provide a clear and defined place for them to express their individuality without upsetting the ordered society (in effect you are ordering the disorder as simply denying it's existence and expecting non-conformists to conform would be counter productive).  Were I an ethereal I would select XV15 pilots at an early stage for specialist training that most suited (no pun intended) their talents.  Putting these personality types into XV8's would not be the best use of personnel for the greater good.  Similarly, putting less independent personalities in XV15's would not be the best use of their inherent talents to serve the greater good.

Not that any of the above solves the numbers issue but I think that there appears to be a consensus that, however useful they are for specific situations, Stealth should not become a 'must have' killer unit choice for the Tau in Epic.

Orde




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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:12 am 
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Not that any of the above solves the numbers issue but I think that there appears to be a consensus that, however useful they are for specific situations, Stealth should not become a 'must have' killer unit choice for the Tau in Epic.


Totally agree.

They are definitely worth continuing to playtest as written in the current WIP v4.2.4 I'd say.

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