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Stealth Teleport

 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:58 pm 
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Honda,

At 275 for 6 stands in v4.1 it was deemed problematic. That was at 46 points per stand (rounding up).

A) The first proposed was to go from the v4.1 275 points per formation to 250 points for 6 stands in the same formation to see if they became worth it. This was at 42 points per stand (rounding up). The Stealth upgrade was also adjusted for this points change. These were changed in the WIP v4.2.x

B) Instead of lowering the points, the second option is increase the foramtion's value by adding teleport - this is preferred for several reasons and has a greater chance (on paper) of making the formation valuable. So we would maintain the original v4.1 275 for the formation or 46 points per stand and add teleport to the data sheet - not a major change. This would affect the main formation and upgrade.

In your proposed option C), you suggest 225 points for only 4 models _and_ adding teleport. That's 56 points per model. This would also affect the upgrade. This solution
1) lowers the points of the formation
2) lowers the stand count in the formation
3) raises the points per stand
4) adds a bonus ability of teleport

You suggest that this idea is based upon encouraging stealths not to charge. I would counter that the premis has its faults. Stealths are one of the few formations in our force that probably should be able to charge - even if only with a  marginal chance of success.

In my opinion - option C) is based upon a premis I'm not sure if I agree with, but more importantly - its changing too many things all at once.

Keep in mind, if B) makes the unit too valuabe, we can always adjust the model count or points as necessary - but I'm conerned with changing too much with this formation when we have less drastic options to consider first.

Therefore, no offense my friend, but I have to cast my vote to option B) as a basis or first stab approach.

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:57 am 
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Based on some additional research and the above analysis, I now fully support Option B.

Option C sounds like a good idea, but isn't really going to be feasible without really skewing the numbers.

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:09 am 
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Honda,

Agreed. Thanks for the heads up.

Others have opinions - should we try A or B?

Cheers,





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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:47 pm 
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Option B. Stealth are really meant to be attacking where the ennemy doesn't expect them.


I saw some people had a problem with Scout + Teleport. Then what about option D:

=====================
6x XV15 Stealth = 275>250<

Notes: Tau Jet Pack, scouts, RA, ML, >teleport<

Anyway, I'll be fine if they teleport. :8):






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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:09 pm 
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Does someone have a problem with Scout+Teleport? It sounds pretty ok from a fluff point of view. These camouflaged Cads show up behind an artillery position -> all kinds of hell breaks loose. This is represented pretty well with Teleport and a 10 cm ZoC; the disruption caused by the Stealth contingent's presence is potentially larger than any real damage they cause. The ability seems to fit Stealth much better than Swooping Hawks, at any rate.

That said, I doubt Stealth really need teleport in order to be really useful. This was aptly summarized by nealhunt.

Adding Teleport to the Tau army is likely to have much bigger effects on how the Tau play than on how well we think Stealth suits are modelled. The positioning of Markerlights will get a lot easier, if we can just teleport them in. The assault capabilities of Stealth are good enough that lone arty batteries and the like will be vulnerable, when so far they've been relatively easy to guard with flak. The overall effect may be good, for all I know, but I think it won't be small.

All in all, I'd like for us to go conservative on this one. Playtesting it as a possible change is good, of course.


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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:52 am 
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That said, I doubt Stealth really need teleport in order to be really useful. This was aptly summarized by nealhunt.


Respectfully I disagree. Neal showed how they could be used as currently configured...I've even used them in a game as he has layed out (that's how Greg L uses them).

However, I still don't think the cost is justified, nor does the unit fulfill its defined role as layed out in the various flavors of fluff. It is a really good, yet expensive skirmishing unit. Not saying that is bad necessarily (well, I sort of am :/ ), but it could be capable of so much more.

Adding teleport does not prevent it from being used as is, but does allow the unit's capabilities and roles to be greatly expanded by adding teleport.

As you pointed out, there is no harm in trying this out in play test.

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:29 am 
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OK everyone.

I greatly appreciate the debate and amount of responses we've received on this topic. So thanks for offering thoughts.

Where we're at:
============
Sounds like plenty of folks want to give teleport a go.

Teleport seems appropriate for the formation and with existing rules/stats/notes, it should make the formation worth the 275 price. Teleport is worth trying.

There's justification for scout + teleport, but concern for balance by the combination in general. Scout or Teleport may need to be removed if the combination proves to be over the top.

Teleporting marker lights allow GM's to work quicker/easier. We need to fully understand the impact of this effect and whether the net effect is as desired to be effective or if over the top.

Option B) will be in the next update for all to test due to comments from this thread

We'll be looking for feedback regarding impact of this change, specificially addressing the above concerns. Ample playtest feedback is needed around each of these concerns.

Cheers.

PS - I tried teleporting scouts in two of my 4 Tau WIP v4.2.x games this weekend. If interested, here was my experiences in summary format...

In the first game, I teleported them in on turn 2 because I wanted to be able to sustain fire with a different formation using the Stealth's marks (their ideal use, right?). When I teleported in the 6-stealth formation, they received one blast marker. I then failed to win the initiative for the turn and they were cross-fired and broke - then couldn't rally till turn 4 which at that point, they were out of effective range and didn't impact the game.

In the second game, I teleported them in on turn 2 again for the same reasons aformentioned. This time, I received 1 blast marker from teleport again (which I guess is odds 1 in 6 on a 6 man formation). That does suck.. but anyway, I went to a flank close to some IG Manticores (and hydras on overwatch right next to them) This time I did win the initiative though! I activated some hammerheads to move once and fire with guided missles only and stay hidden. (The FW formation I was originally planning on sustaining with only had 3 Devilfish remaining and 3 seekers, so probably wasn't great odds needing sustained 4+ to actually rid the manticore formation - and I wanted them gone for sure!, so went with hammerheads moving once instead) I did this to avoid the overwatched hydras. I needed 5's with 6 shots. I hit twice (which was odds) and he saved once (which was NOT odds) but he lost one tank and came under fire, therefore he broke with only two manticores left.

I then attempted to retain with the stealths and take them into a FF to hopefully finish them off as I assumed the stealths weren't long for this world after picking on one of my opponent's favorite units... heh... (its worth noting that the manticores withdrew around a corner and were no longer in LOF of my formations nor were they in marked area of the Stealths at that point) Alas, I had a blast marker on the Stealths from teleport so needed a 4+ with the retain... first attempt to activate failed, used SC to get the 4+ and failed again!! (I really hate it when that happens) - Stealths then came under fire by sustain firing Hydra Flak Battery 20cm or so nearby needing 4's on 3x HB's and 3's on 6x twin-autocannons. He hit 1 time with HB, but hit 5 of the 6 autocannons. I managed to save 3 of the 6 hits from RA 5+ on the stealths but only 3 models left with 4 blast markers... they didn't live to the end of the turn due to blast marker extra dmage from further piddly shots. Luckily for me, the Manticores didn't rally at the end of turn 2! So the stealth trick worked to hold off the damage for another turn.

So, I had a mixed bag of goods with telporting stealth. They were essentially sacrificial both times. Like terminators, teleport can be a neat trick but can be a one hit event.

Still, it felt like a good ability that I'll have to play around with more to see which scenerios are the best to use the formation in. I actually may try a larger formation next time as they were almost too fragile - but larger formation means more points and also lessons the value of the tactic to me... so that's probably not the right approach either. Again, I'll have to play around with it more personlly.

It definitely feels like the formation has sme of its old 'spunk' I'm used to and the trick has the potential to be handy. Not knowing whether you go first or not is huge and there's an awful lot of armies out there we don't get an advantage to go first against. Against those armies, i see the tactic being more valuable in general.

When you do get to go first, you may end up being a bit of a sacrificial 1-hit wonder tactic against the quality players prepaired to react to such a tactic but you should be able to intelligently use the strategy to temporarily deal with a formation against those ready for it, and against the unsuspecting player that's not protecting himself from teleporters - you'll actually be able to make some great use of the tactic I think... lol, but against those chaps, you probably don't need the trick either LOL.





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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:28 am 
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Quote (Tactica @ 07 Nov. 2005 (03:29))
There's justification for scout + teleport, but concern for balance by the combination in general. Scout may need to be removed if proves over the top.

If scout+teleport is over the top, I recommend ditching teleport. The formation currently works without teleport, and losing scout would essentially make them teleport-only, which would be a real loss.


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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Asaura,

Well met.

Original post editted, good point, "...Scout or Teleport..."


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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:20 pm 
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Reading the last post it seems the scout+teleport isn't such a devastating effect - given the unit's light sustainability.

I did like the fact that you used them like I imagine they would be used, Tactica. They teleport in, light the target, and in come the missiles - boom! Perfect special operational tactic. I assume the fact that they are scouts didn't have too much impact...?

Anyway, this makes me wonder how tactical these guys can be - how much of a distraction would they be in the enemy's rear areas? Imagine your enemy sitting in cover on OW. If you drop your Stealths in behind he has to task formations that may otherwise be needed on the frontline to deal with them or be lit up like christmas (do Tau celebrate Xmas? :D ).

SHTs on OW now have to worry about a plethora of hidden missile launchers! Ok, they may not punch massive holes in the SHTs but fire enough ordnance at something and a few shots should hit their mark. Especially given a CF attack.
Being scouts they could spread out (20cm cohesion) across the enemy rear line and paint the targets in their arcs.  

This last bit seems quite fluffy to me too, as even though they are part of the larger formation they operate in their own little area as a single team....


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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:49 pm 
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Dobbsy,

You bring up some interesting ideas that from a tactical perspective still need to be developed.

I think I can summarize where we see them currently:

1. Teleport certainly makes the Stealth more mobile than they currently are. This is balanced by the fact that you have to place them down at the beginning of the turn, so everybody knows where they are.

2. Depending on whether or not you think you're (i.e. Tau) going to secure the first turn, then you may or may not get to use them before they are attacked. So against SM, not very likely, against Orks a decent chance, IG is a wash, and I don't know the Eldar for sure, but I'm guessing that they're going to be like the SM.

3. The fact that you have to roll for each unit to see if a BM is placed, means that statistically, at least one unit will incur a BM. Now you have 5 guys that can do something and a -1 to any follow on orders.

4. They have decent armor, but they really aren't hard like SM terminators, so they may hang around and they may not.

So, can they help "stretch" the battlefield? Most definitely. However as was stated in other posts, Stealth will be a finesse play and depending on the circumstances of the game and the opponent type, may or may not pay out.

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:22 pm 
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Dobbsy and Honda, you got me thinking - E:A Stealth tactics.

Honda's Finesse comments are dead on IMHO

Your opponent's willingness to allows these stealth chaps to linger will be a direct result of how effective they are for you. If he sees them as little more than a nuisance that he doesn't have to really worry about... well, I feel sorry for him.

Bring on the GMs, bring on the crossfire, and start forcing indirect fire targets to move as opportunities present themselves.

However, the tactic will not be near that value against a player not willing to allow you to run all over his backside.

You will get to teleport, no question about that.

You will likely have a blast marker - unless the greater good is on your side. Odds alone say you should statistically always have one after teleporting. If you don't get one, look out for your next game where you may end up with 2 to balance out your odds! :)

Once landed, you may or may not desire to put the enemy within your scout range. That's your call.

Now you have to win the inititiative. That may be a feat in itself. You will have to gauge your teleport deployment based upon the probability - or severity of the situation. If playing against Marines, Chaos, Necrons, or Eldar - don't count on winning the init roll off... Orcs and IG are another story - but nothings guaranteed even in these cases - so judge the situation accordingly.

I'd recommend having a clear cut reason for teleporting - prior to throwing them out to the wolves.

These opinions above stem from what I presently believe are three primary modes of operations for this formation:

1) Target elimination
  a. markers
  b. shooting
  c. assault
2) Distract and Diversionary
3) Objective grab

1) Target elimination
This mode of operation has three subcategories to it IMHO. Depending upon your approach, it may be the hardest category to pull off of all three major modes of operation - but it may be the most gratifying if your enemy fails to deal with the threat, chooses to ignore them, or has a series of bad events affording you to capitalize on the Stealths location.

1-a. Marking is the easist, you show up via teleport, accept your blast marker graciously, and then the target is marked. With initiative in hand - now you can activate a fresh formation to move up and take advantage of the marks by your stealth - brilliant! I think this will be the primary role of the formation. You will have to consider such things as enemy overwatch and whether or not the +1 to hit with GM's on another formation is worth what will likely result in the sacrifice of the stealths, but you should be able to find the occasional use where it does pan out in the numbers.  If you break that hiding artillery formation or whatever that's relatively easy for another one of your formations to break - now considering the marks - you may even risk retaining with the stealths to go further make use of them and activate before they are shot up or engaged. The stealths could serve as that last bit needed to put a blast marker on a broken formation for extra damage. This will have to follow a manouvre that already went your way of course, but these guys are not going to game breakers - but they may be able to nudge an already teetering apple cart situation [envokes Honda-ism]

1-b. Once landed, and with blast marker in hand, you may or may not want to now risk activation of the Stealths assuming you have the -1 to activate from the blast marker. The Stealths only have AP and no AT. So your 6-man formation will likely have 5 AP 3+ disrupt shots. Against an infantry target in cover (probably typical) you'll need 3+ sustaining and 4+ if you have to move and 5+ if you have to double (with 15cm guns, you may find you have to move unless you just are going to put them in harms way and go for broke!). With your 5 shots and assuming a 4+ to hit, that will likely result in 3-4 blast markers on the enemy infantry formation... Well, that's OK in some situations and probably not so good in many others. AGain, you'll have to gauge. If your enemy is kind of enough to leave his formation in the open and you are lucky and receive no blast marker rolls and get to go first in the initiative then at best you'll get 7 blast markers on the enemy if all of your models hit and you had no blast markers when you teleported in!  (btw: you should go to vegas after that game!) So those pesky indirect firing tank formations may receive a blast marker from you - but your likely hood of breaking an unscathed AT formation is rather bleak if you do not call on your friends to use your markers - unless you wish to charge. Furthermore, your likeliness of utterly shooting down a significantly sized infantry formation in cover or with any amount of cover is also not very promissing - so shooting alone will have its uses, but not really the best use of the formation IMHO.

1-c. To engage or not to engage. Well, the FF 5+ first strike with 6 models will get you 2 hits before the enemy can swing back. Situationally, this may be of value to you. If they have an armor save or any significant number, what the heck are you doing? Chances are you will be going in with 1 blast marker on you and 6 models. So against an unguarded manticore battery, maybe it makes sense - but how many times are you going to get to use this against an unguarded artillery battery? Well, if you have a generous adversary - more power to you, however, many times the artillery will be guarded by at least one other formation that can lend fire. So is the sacrifice worth it? Your call. Typically, charge is not going to be the worlds best option for you - but situationally will have some uses perhaps. Later in the game when other formations can FF along with you, the Sleaths may have an advantage - but one wonders why the tau are so close to the enemy at that point!

2) Distract and Diversionary.
Distracting the opponent to go after the stealths instead of something else that's already on the field and that you know you need to live - there's a possible tactic to consider. Even if they do die, this can have value as something else lived or the enemy formation had to move to go after the stelaths and extend themselves, etc. Teleporting stelaths behind LOF blocking terrain but close enough to double or single them in to mark or grab an objective will make the opponent really question whether or not they need to divert some resources to deal with this new pest. If diversionary, you really don't care if they die or not straight away - your goal is to distract the opponent from your main push which you are trying to plan for elsewhere on the field. Mind games and bluffs are great tools IMHO. The stealths should afford such an opportunity from time to time. In the event that the initial telport does not alarm the adversary (silly enemy general!) Scout may even help you stretch out and further irritate the opponent if not provoke them into dealing with the scouts lest they afford the tau player a crossfire or marker light opportunity (see mode of perationer 1 above!). One could even talk up this potnetial if so necessary to get the enemy to 'bite' the bate so to speak. So head games and diversionary roles may be something to think about...

3) Objective Grab.
This one is obvious, if you think you have the game locked up but need one more formation to insure success - the teleporter may be relied upon. This means you go for 2-3 turns without these points in play and that in itself may be quite the risk, but you will force the enemy to now deal with the formation - whereever it lands if it will be the formation to put you over the top. The formation can break pretty easily so this will have its situational uses as well. If you are down in activations or don't have good field control, the chances of survival with the formation are limited at best. However, this tactic is another tool to consider. I know there's been more than one occasion where I wished I had one more formaton in reserve to help out a desperate situation, but I had all my points in play in those games already too!! This is a possible use for the formation though - if things are relatively in good shape for you already. If you are down and losing, its probably going to be of little significance.

Anyway, long post - but that's basically where I see the value in the formation. Situational and risky, but a trick to be used as opportunity is created or presents itself.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:01 pm 
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<*/MUTUAL_ADMIRATON_SOCIETY set to ON>

Tac,

Good outline for Stealth deployment.

<*/MUTUAL_ADMIRATON_SOCIETY set to OFF>

If you look in the IA3 fluff, the Stealth suits are often times depicted as deployed to attack soft targets (i.e. Supply trains) and interdict.

They also got wiped out when pushed, so I think we have them framed fairly well. I've got a 1500 point game against SM next week and as much as I'd like to field them, I'm not sure it'll pay out.

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:01 pm 
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You will likely have a blast marker - unless the greater good is on your side. Odds alone say you should statistically always have one after teleporting.


Just for reference, the chances of 6 units teleporting in without any BMs is ~1/3, so not horrible.

====

Incidentally, another tactic would be to meet up with a flanking formation.  End of turn double or march a formation up the flank.  Teleport in.  You now have a considerably stronger force on the enemy flank.

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 Post subject: Stealth Teleport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:42 pm 
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Neal,

Agreed - not horrible. I'm not a statistician or anything... but 66% chance of receiving a blast marker before I see who goes first and before I roll to activated them if I do get to go first is definitely something I want to take into account as part of my tactical positioning considerations of the formation. Maybe I stand alone on that mountain, but in a game where blast markers have several impacts and to a formation that only needs 3 blast markers to be broken - such things are of significant concern to me.

For me, 66% chance of getting a blast marker means I assume that I'll receive a blast marker and factor that into the plan. If I don't - its a bonus. ;) I'm sure others will look at such odds different, but that's just me.

I know its not perfect math - but if I have 6 rolls, and each has a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 1 due to the 6 sides, each dice therefore has something like a 17% chance of failure on each roll (rounding)... I know its not a simple as multiplying the 6 rolls times the 17% chance for failure, but its likely enough for me to say "I'll probably have a blast marker if I do this" and go from there.

Perhaps its just my abstract if not flawed thinking. :8:

Cheers,

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