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For the Greater Good

 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:22 pm 
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Right. Setting up a new Army Champion for the Tau is taking a little longer than I thought. Therefore, based on the assumption that we are all grown-ups (a dangerous assumption, clearly!  :D  ), I feel that we should just get up and running with this as a temporary regime until things are settled. We dont need to rely on JJ to sort us out, and we can keep the momentum going as a community.

My initial idea was to distribute the areas of the Tau list to different people... something like:

Water Caste - general list organisation and putting together the various versions (CyberShadow)
Ethereal - sorting out the special rules across the list (Honda)
Fire Caste - infantry and LV units (Jaldon)
Earth Caste - AV units, and Auxilliary units (Tactica)
Air Caste - fliers (Nerroth)

Whatever structure we decide on, and we could just run this as a community effort for the short term, perhaps we should look at the potential changes to be made.

For reference, the most recent version of the tau list is here:

Epic Armageddon Tau (PDF Format) - SG Web Site

With this being the case, perhaps we should use this thread for suggestions of changes. Once a suggestions has been made, it is probably best if a new thread is opened up to debate the point. At the conclusion if this, the person who initially suggested the change can edit the thread to state whether the suggestion is accepted or rejected.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:34 pm 
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I am in the process of building a Tau list, though it is still a ways off as of yet. However, when it is ready to be fielded I would be happy to offer up reports on how the list did against a variety of different opponents. We have a very solid core of players here in Ottawa now so it would get a good deal of exposure to a number of different opponents.

Adam


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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:58 pm 
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I like how you picked me as the Kor caste person - ties in with my Kor'vattra interest (and I can playtest the Air caste units - except the Manta - in the Gue'senshi list!)

OK, so I know you weren't actually choosing such a thing, but I would be happy to take the Kor on board, though as I say the Manta is something I would want to share with - or pass on to - someone who uses it more regularly.

Gary

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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:55 pm 
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I need to issue a few words of warning. Currently, there's a lot of initiatives going around about buffing various Tau abilities. There's the LV->Inf thing for Crisis. There's increased FF for Support Craft. There's removing Slow-firing from the Rail-Moray.

All this is about power-ups. That's bad. I hate to invoke JG now that he's gone, but he had a reason to put all of those weaknesses in the list. An Epic army list needs weaknesses and limitations. You can't just make everything work like magic and say that you'll up the points and all is well. It won't work.

I sincerely hope that whoever gets the AC mantle understands that.


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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:22 am 
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To Quote Jervis (Da Big Boss) "An army is defined more by it's weaknesses then it is it's strengths"

This is a design philosophy JJ has kept through the entire design process of Epic-A to date, and is something we must stick with IF we want to do any serious work on the Tau list. DOing anything else is sure to get the big scratch delete from JJ

An example would be any attempt to increase the Tau's already meger ability in any type of assaults, be it FF or CC, JJ will simply say no. Saying "Oh well we can try and he might say yes" sounds good, but the truth is, that is the weakness JJ wants this list to have, therefore it is a major part and he will not relent because it gives the list it's character.

For those present I agree with JJ, and not because I am a "yes man" bowing down to the Big Cheese, but because I have seen it work in other lists we have worked on since day one (And I do meen day one). In the first Ork list the Nobz all had CCMW+1A, looked real good on paper put in practice made these guys real monsters of the midway, and was something I disagreed with JJ about for months. So a yes man I am not.

The present Tau list isn't broken, it may difficult to use (Like SM), but is fully capable of defeating any foe, when used properly. You want easy, get Orks, you want middle of the road get IG and Eldar, like a challange use SM or Tau, and there is nothing wrong with it being that way if the list itself works and is balanced.

So does this meen I think the Tau list is a finished product? No, but I also don't think it needs any kind of major overhaul either as JG and JJ had many real good reasons for what they did and are how we got to this point. Dismantling a major part of that work is sure to get the axe from JJ, and result in a lot of valuable time wasted.

Just as an example, for a while I have wanted the Tau to get a serious BP non-IDF weapon for one of the support WEs, but JJ just axes it every time, as his authority is final I have stopped pushing for it.

So I have concentrated my efforts on the list as presented looking for holes to fill that still fall under JJ's design criteria for the Tau. The present Battlesuit LV/Inf issue is a good example of one of these. Now I haven't made up my mind yet, and I am still leaning toward them staying LV, but I also still think the issue is valid enough to continue to pursue and playtest.

So the entire point of this rant  :wow:  is that we shouldn't be looking at doing any kind of major overhaul of the work already done, but rather trying to work within that same body of work to find  holes that need to be filled, or playbalance issues that need correction.

Nuff said, Iain I'll be glad to help out and will accept the position offered above as long as you correct me on the Tau background when I fall off the edge, which I have a habit of doing :o0

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:55 am 
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Once again, Brother Jaldon ... makes sense ... :alien:  :8):




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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:20 am 
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Off the top I must apologize for the lateness of the Tau vs Eldar batrep the maps are done (and soon to be off), but the report is as of yet unfinished. Let me say that it not only shows again what the Tau are capable of, but is also a very good object lesson to new players as to why keeping your eyes on the objectives is so important.

As for this thread, lets get the ball rolling right here, Ok. All of this was headed to JG's desk, but now I'll post it here instead, now none of this is written in stone, nor are they demands, they are just my ideas and my excuses for them.

TO&E Suggestions

Change Kroot Kindred Upgrade to;
+1 to 5 Kroot for 15pts each

Change Gue'vesa upgrade to;
+1 to 6 Gue'vesa for 10pts each

Change the following Tau upgrades to;
+1 to 2 XV88s for 75pts each
+1 to 2 XV8s for 65pts each
+1 to 3 XV15s for 45pts each
+1 to 2 Hammerheads for 65pts each

The only real reason for these changes is to allow the Tau more flexibility in force selection, to me this seems to fit better the Tau philosophy of war then a more rigid selection. At the same time it also shouldn't go as far the total flexibility the Orks have as this also would feel very un-Tau.

Unit Data Sheet Changes

XV88 Broadside Battlesuit (LV) Option #1
Speed/Armor/CC/FF
15cm/4+/6+/5+
Weapons/Range/Firepower
2xRailgun/75cm/AP4+ AT3+
Plasma Rifle/30cm/AP4+
notes: Reinforced Armor, Walker

I have never really understood why the Broadsides Railgun was so much different then the Hammerhead Railgun. This configuration adresses this issue, but could result in an unwanted rise in the XV88's cost above 75pts. Maybe we could replace the Plasma Rifle with a Pulse Rifle, or remove it entirely to keep the cost down. (I don't know if this would fit the fluff though, it may not fly)

XV88 Broadside Battlesuit (LV) Option #2
Speed/Armor/CC/FF
15cm/4+/6+/5+
Weapon/Range/Firepower
Twin Linked Railgun/75cm/AP3+ AT2+
Plasma Rifle/30cm/AP4+
notes: Reinforced Armor, Walker

This is maybe a way to adress the differences in the two Railgun mounts and maintain the price of the XV88 at 75pts, maybe even drop it to 50pts each ????

Piranha (LV)
Speed/Armor/CC/FF
35cm/5+/6+/6+
Weapons/Range/Firepower
Burst Cannon/15cm/AP4+
Seeker Missile/75cm/AT6+
notes: Skimmer, Markerlights

It always seemed odd to me that the Piranha didn't have markerlights. I do understand it is intended to act as a bullet screen while increasing formation firepower, but it just seemed wrong that they had no markerlights. Maybe change the formation to three for 75pts to reflect this added ability?

Moray (WE)
Speed/Armor/CC/FF
20cm/5+/0+/6+
Weapons/Range/Firepower
Rail Cannon/75cm/MW2+TKD6 FxF Slow Firing
Ion Phalanx/60cm/3xAP3+ AT3+ FxF
OR
2xIon Phalanx/60cm/3xAP3+ AT3+ FxF
Burst Cannon/15cm/AP4+ Ignore Cover
Interceptor Missile/30cm/AA5+
Tracer Missile/75cm/MW6+ Guided
notes: DC-3, Tau Deflector Shield, Fearless, Reinforced Armor, Planetfall, Support Craft

I could be way off base here, but this could be a possible solution to the disparity between the two Ion Phalanx configuration to the single Rail Cannon configuration. It does have the advantage of requiring no change to the Railguns slow firing while allowing the first configuration to maintain some firepower in the interm between reloading.

The Tigershark :alien:
The truth be known I really don't get this one, though I have tried. The Tigershark just feels redundant, and maybe needs a heavy re-think/overhaul, as it seems to be a WE in search of a mission. It wants to be a transport, but it can't carry very much and to deliver the goods puts it in real danger of being shot down easily. It wants to be a strike platform to, but it has to get close to do it and so again putting in real danger of getting shot down easily. For 50pts less I can get a real transport (Orca), and for 50pts more I can get a real strike platform (Narwhal), so I am really at a loss as to why I should buy it, and then just exactly what to do with it once I do buy one :wow:

My gut feeling right now is to turn it into a dedicated flying Titan Killer Platform similar in function to the Thunderhawk Annihilator, maybe a weapons configuration like this;

Weapon/Range/Firepower
2xTracer Missile Pods/45cm/2xMW6+ Guided
Snub Rail Cannon/45cm/MW3+TKD6

This is just an idea, really

Hey Legion4, you do know Halloween is just around the corner and all this agreeing stuff is making me start to wonder if you don't have a voodoo doll of me on your altar at home :alien:

Jaldon :p





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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:44 pm 
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Since we'll know who will be the Army Champion next week, we should use this thread to each put up our laundry list of preferred changes perhaps...

For my part, I'd not mind seeing the Railcannon Moray lose slow-firing (but get D3 instead of D6), but keep the Ion Moray as is.

I'd like to see the addition of the idea of Tracer Missile bombardment from Tau starships, the number of missiles weighted against the ships' BFG Gravitic Launcher stats, using this rule:

Tau Orbital Missile Barrage

In keeping with the Shas'ar'tol's and Kor'vattra's shared concept of surgical warfare, Tau eschew the traditional orbital bombardment used by some other fleets. Instead, the Tau ship fires a salvo of guided missiles from its prow-mounted gravitic launcher. These missiles are guided to their targets by markerlight-armed ground units, in order to maximize their ability to lay waste to suitable enemy formations.

On a turn when a Tau spacecraft is in play, choose a marked enemy formation anywhere on the table, or an enemy War Engine (marked or unmarked, as with Pin-point Attacks the starship's sensors may only target such larger vehicles from orbit). This formation may be targeted by the starship's Tracer Missiles, recieving the standard +1 markerlight bonus should the target formation be marked.

I'd want to give the Lar'shi 4(or 6) Tracer Missiles.

Also, I'd want to add the Custodian as a spacecraft option, with the following stats:

TAU OR?ES EL?LEATH ?CUSTODIAN? CLASS BATTLESHIP - 300 points
Experience with the Gal?Leath in combat, particularly against the Gue?la incursion into sovereign Tau space during the Damocles Crusade, demonstrated a number of significant shortcomings that could not be overcome without a radical hull redesign, despite notable advances incorporated into the experimental Bor?kan variant of the venerable Gal?Leath. As the
Kor?or?vesh initiative bore fruit with a progressively larger series of completely new and successful hull designs, it was only logical that the next step would be to produce a battleship-class vessel.
Early operational tests proved that like the other designs resulting from the Kor?or?vesh initiative, it met or exceeded all objectives required for the new ship. Despite the horrendous costs and resource expenditure involved in building these vessels, a number of Septs adopted the design and produced
them in small numbers. For many tau?cyr these ships were held in reserve, and it was quite some time before knowledge of this vessel?s existence became widespread.
First encountered by Imperial forces led by Admiral Kotto during the Taros Campaign, the ?Custodian? class and its attendant escorts were a complete surprise to the Imperial fleet. Appreciating the threat this class represented, the battleship A?rho in particular was ruthlessly hunted down and destroyed
by Admiral Kotto?s fleet. Subsequently, the Or'es El'leath has taken its place at the core of the Tau Empire's new Commerce Protection Fleets.

Type         Speed  Armour  Close Combat  Firefight
Spacecraft n/a      n/a       n/a               n/a
Weapon                  Range  Firepower  Notes
Pin-point attack        n/a     MW2+      Titan Killer (D3)
6(or 8, depending on which is more balanced)x Tracer Missiles   n/a     MW6+      Tau Orbital Missile Barrage
Notes: Transport (may carry up to 18 Morays and/or Orcas plus any troops carried in them; Mantas (plus any troops in
them) can also be carried but count as three craft for transport capacity purposes), Slow and steady ? may not be used on turns one and two of a battle unless the scenario specifically states otherwise.


If the starships are too expansive at 150 and 300 with the missile bombardment, make them 200 and 350 respectively.


Also, I wouldn't mind seeing a fusion gun option for Piranhas, as seen in IA3.


Not the most extensive list, but these will do for now!

Gary





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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:24 pm 
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The Piranah has never had a markerlight:  The idea is that it is a fast and light missile carrier that operates in support of ML equiped units, like the Tetra:  it's another combined arms thang, a screen of Tetras backed up by Piranah's acting as GM platforms gives you the ability to quickly place a large area anywhere on the field under threat.   Alternatively it can be used to support Pathfinders in Devilfish to provide more GM shots, a function it also performs for Hammerhead and Stingreay detachments.  It's not really a front line combat unit and the burst cannons are mainly there for self defense.

Tetras come as a unit of 6 and Piranahs as 4 because Forgeworld sells them in a pack of 3 Tetras and 2 Piranahs.

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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:04 am 
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No Voodoo Doll ... yet ... :;):  But really ... with the cost of F/W Tau, the IG Human Traitors of the Tau Gue'whatevers ... will have slots in my Tau TO&Es ! :D

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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:23 pm 
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Good day everyone.

Going comment on several posts here...

CS,

I like the caste idea of responsibility areas. As the champ is announced in the next week or so, may be a bit pre-emptive to assign duties. However, if the group's on board, I accept the assigned the non-flier AV and aux unit responsibilities in the interum.


Asura & Jaldon,

Personally, I see no reason why Tau shouldn't be as formidable if fielded in a variety of list compositions. Marines are... well... some of us call them more of a challenge to master, some call them rushed in development or behind the times, and others call the marines a problematic list that does not have enough flexability to be competative with other lists already developed.

Regardless of what the Marines are or are not, I personally would like the Tau to be on par with the Orks, IG, Eldar and Black Legion as far as flexability, viability, and competative nature is concerned. I would personally like to avoid being on par with the - to this day - disputed Marines. I personally don't even really consider the Marines a joy to play and I say that after fielding all of the above lists on multiple occasions.

I see no reason why a list (Tau) cannot be on par with the other lists that players - in my area at least - are more fond of and enjoy playing due to their various special rules, units, and bonus' which make each unique in their own way. In order for this to happen - yes, Tau need a proverbial face-lift in many areas from their current iteration.

Some may call this face-lift simply a group of "power-ups". Others may see this as making the abilities match the points, balancing the list against the adversaries already developed, making the list unique with both significant weakness' (combat) as well as strengths (aircraft and firepower), making the list formidable in tournament situations, and most importantly - keeping the list enjoyable to play.

I do agree that there is a danger in giving power-ups (or whatever) across the board to a given list. I don't think we are close to that. Tau - at one time long ago - were way out of balance and were FF machines that couldn't be assaulted, and when they did assault - they couldn't be beat. Nobody wants to go back to those days. However, the list as a whole has developed several problem areas along the way. Other list precidents have been completed since the work on Tau was originally commenced. Eldar and Black Legion have both come to the forfront and we now have these lists as well as IG and Orks to playtest against. These new precidents deserve consideration. I don't think the Tau list will turn into simply "power-ups" as that is not in the best interest of the list or the game. I do think we'll see a better list in the end. I do think non-Tau players may see a lot of the development as power ups.

However, try to convince a non-Eldar player that the following aren't simply an overkill of too many power ups! (not that I would necessarily agree)

1. free blast marker removal for every formation in an army
2. several formations that activate on a 1+
3. ability to take more than 2 activations in a turn - every turn
4. multi-shot weapons (some of which are not only AT/AP but also MW and AA) that continue to roll for more and more damage on a 4+,
5. New weapon technology that acts like MW - but isn't called that (lance)
6. 3+ invulnerable save shields - on titans!
7. give full move distance moves post assault - moving you out of enemy counter assault with FF supports!
8. rapid teleport deployments through objectives
9. rapid teleport deployments through vehicles
10. move shoot and move abilities to various units - even though eldar don't have that ability in 40K and Tau crisis do
11. free war engines summoned to the field
12. titans with jump packs
13. ability to take an all skimmer army
14. an army that can not only shoot on par with IG, but can also fight on par with marines

I think the Tau are far from on par with Eldar (or the others mentioned) right now. It may be that "power-ups" are in order, but if that's what comes - it should be because our 'base' at present is sub-standard to the playing field, not simply for the sake of making the army stronger.

Nobody wants an arms race or degradation of the game as a whole due to imbalanced development. Thus the encouragement of public opinion and open devleopment. We should get opinions of both the pro- and anti-Tau fans that way :cool:

FYI: not to worry here. I don't want the Tau beating the Eldar or IG or Black Legion or Orks in more than 50% of their games when players are of equal skill. I also don't want the inverse though.


Jaldon,

Broadsides: the models are packed equipped with TL-SMS or
TL-plasma rifles. In 40K, you must take one of these secondary systems. Devistators have 2 shots per stand and broadsides are twin-linked with each of their systems. In epic, they are multi-model stands - each having a twin-linked rail plus twin-linked aux system. 2 shots per stand plus aux weapon seems adequate from fluff and standards previously defined with devistators. Doesn't mean rules/balance/and points work out, but something to consider perhaps.

Tetra/pirahna: I would encourage being mindful of packaging when thinking about unit sizes. (3 tetra, 2 pirahna per recon pack if I recall)

Pirhana: adding a marker light doesn't seem right here. I like that it makes the unit more useful, but in fluff its way off. The unit is supposed to be a support vehicle that can add to rapid front line assault. In 40K it has challenges of being effective, the model is supposed to come out in the main codex though too. So we'll see how it fairs in the rework in april. As it stands in 40K today, its most effective as a stripped down unit with a fusion blaster and targetting array (+1 to hit). Get up close, and melt the side of a vehicle with the fusion blaster. Given the other weapon options in 40K, it makes the unit less desirable.

Tigershark: there are two versions of this in 40K FW:IA3:TC book. One version hauls a bunch of drones and has lots of mid-range firepower (ion cannons, burst cannons, missle pods, etc.). The second version eliminates drone hauling and is designed to be like the modified Eldar Vampire superheavy flier in purpose and built on the tigershark chassis. It's a titan hunter plane - plain and simple. It punches really big holes in really big things. It still has all the burst cannons and missle pods and further adds more missle bays along with a network marker light.

:alien:





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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:04 pm 
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Interesting post. I think that the key here is the balance between flexibility (so that it is actually possible to see two Tau armies that are different), and character (making the Tau as an army favour certain styles).

It may be a good idea to go back to the basic ideas behind the Tau at this point. Things like...

- they should be weak at assault
- they should favour ranged fire, not just firefights
- they should behave in a similar way to mecha forces
- etc

Once we have this list, it is just a matter of interpretting these attributes in a couple of different styles in order to give the player options, but remain within the previous principles of war.

The Tau should be on a par with other forces (and I will skip over the Eldar, which I think are not quite one-sided or powerful as some believe), but it is possible to do this in a number of ways and still retain the character of the list.

There are hurdles along the way. For example, the 40K Tau rely on the long range small arms, but if this is translated directly to Epic, it makes the Tau excellent at firefight, and gives them the edge in an assault. Therefore, the Tau draws on longer ranged vehicle weapons, and indirect capabilities. as well as fast, skimmer units which deliver punch. Two options fulfilling the same ideals and still remaining true to the idea without shackled to 40K.

I think that this is the type of approach which needs to be taken with the Tau. I dont think that the list requires a huge overhaul, but I do think that we need to formulate exactly what we expect from a generic Tau force, what its strengths and weaknesses should be, and then examine the individual units and the interaction between them.

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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:55 am 
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For the record,

I really like the Eldar. I like them a lot actually.

They are a fun list to play. They are a fun list to play against. Same goes for IG, orcs, and black legion.

I don't own an Eldar army in E:A, but the weekly host of our gaming group does. I've played it several times and played against it several times.

Its a tricky list to beat, and has armor weaknesses that can be exploited in some areas, but requires a certain finesse and fire discipline to beat. They rally quickly and can become a very hard to get to army.

I do not think they are broken or over the top. I do think they are very tough to play against. I think an unsuspecting enemy may get rolled over by the Eldar.

I do think the Eldar have a significant amount of special rules. These inherently can blind-side an opponent. They allow the list to have 'tricks' on the battlefield that the Eldar commander can employee at his liesure.

Although I still don't understand the purpose or need for some of the things in the list (ehem... spirit stones) ???

I actually admire the Eldar list as a whole.

I also love to hate it at times.

That makes it a good measuring stick for Tau development IMHO.

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 Post subject: For the Greater Good
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:36 am 
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First, really, thanks for all the background fluff stuff on the Tau, as I said before I am really weak on their background fluff so this really does help me better understand the list.

As for the game mechanics end of things, I understand those much better.

CS, the host of 15cm weapons, used properly, do give the Tau a real hard hitting ranged firepower attacks. They also allow the Tau to hit an opponent with this type of Coordinated Fire Attack at some really long ranges, (which as soon as I am finished working doubles this week will be seen in the Eldar vs Tau batrep ?:8: ) but they are a bit tricky to use well. Even I am struggling to get a full handle on them, but I do know from experince they are effective, the entire concept has only been in use by us for a little over a month now so 'a bit tricky' means still working out the bugs.

Coordinated Fire also creates some real effective shooting groups, and with the 'collection' range being 15cm not all that hard to set up.

The entire point is, just because we don't have a full handle on exploiting these tactics because we only started doing them recently doesn't mean they aren't effective and don't achieve the results desired easily enough. The truth is we really don't know yet, we only know they are a bit tricky right now.

To us a total re-work of the Tau isn't required, or needed right now.

As for flexibility, the present list is, and playtest experience has shown this to be true. Neither Roger nor my humble self use the same Tau armies, and before playtesting the above tactics, we achieved a similar win loss record. Roger is only now coming around to trying these tactics using his preffered list, and I see him have little trouble doing so with it.

For the record, I love playing SM, have fun using them, and win 50-50 with them. They need one real small fix to solve the assault bug-a-boo.

The Eldar are not massivly broken just a bit OTT, though the Spirit Stones DO aggrivate me, as do the Holofields working in CC. It is still not enough to make the army way broken.

Well there is my two cents........

Jaldon :p





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Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.


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