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Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2
baronpiero	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:30 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm Posts: 186	Hello fellow T'au, since people seem interested in discussing big fishes these days (see Moray thread), I thought it could be a good idea to formalize this a bit. And maybe after discussion the next champ could cut and paste it in the new shiny 4.2 list The following proposal represents the current state of the support craft discussion as objectively as possible. The proposal is organized into to two parts: - The Living Proposal presents the suggested changes that did not receive a major disapproval so far. In case of a disaggreement, I?ll always choose the more reasonable alternative to make sure we keep maximum control over additions to the Tau list. - Playtest Options are other ideas that may be worth playtesting as well (power-ups, alternate weapon profiles etc..). Tau Support Crafts (Living proposal) ***last updated***: 24th Oct 2005. Manta Missile Destroyer Army list entry: 1 ground support craft for 850 points Type M Ar CC FF War Engine 20cm 4+ 6+ 5+ Damage Capacity 8. Tau Deflector Shield. Critical Hit Effect: The Manta?s fire control systems are damaged. No weapons may be fired at ranges greater than 45cm, and the Manta suffers an additional blast marker. Further Critical hits will cause an additional point of damage. Notes: Support Craft, Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Fearless, Transport (may carry 16 of the following units: Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Stealth, Gun Drones, Heavy Drones, Crisis, Broadsides; Crisis and Broadsides take up two spaces each; additionally, up to four of the following vehicles may be carried as well: Devilfish, Hammerhead, Swordfish, Skyray, Stingray, Piranha, Tetra). Weapons Rng Fp Notes Twin-linked Railcannons 90cm MW2+ Fixed Forward, Titan Killer(D3+1) 2x Heavy Ion Phalanx 60cm 3x AP3+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Twin-linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT4+ Fixed Forward 4x Long Barrelled Burst Cannons 30cm AP4+/AA6+ ?- 2x Hunter Missiles 75cm AT6+/AA6+ Fixed Forward, Guided Munitions Moray Assault Ship Army list entry 1-2 assault ships for 300 pts each Type M Ar CC FF War engine 20cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Damage Capacity 3. Tau Deflector Shield. Critical Hit Effect: The Moray?s fire control systems are damaged. No weapons may be fired at ranges greater than 45cm, and the Moray suffers an additional blast marker. Further Critical hits will cause an additional point of damage. Notes: Support Craft, Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Fearless. May have either 2x Ion Phalanx OR Twin-linked Railcannons as a main weapon. Weapons Rng Fp Notes Twin-linked Railcannons 90cm MW2+ Fixed Forward, Titan Killer(D3+1) (or) 2x Heavy Ion Phalanx 60cm 3x AP3+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Twin-linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT4+ ?Fixed Forward 2x Long Barrelled Burst Cannons 30cm AP4+/AA6+ [ - ] Hunter Missile 75cm AT6+/AA6+ ?Fixed Forward, Guided Munitions Playtest Options ***last updated***: 30th Oct 2005. Weaponry options Power-up - Replace the twin-linked railcannons with: 2x Railcannon 90cm MW3+ Fixed Forward, Titan Killer(D3) No doubt this is a big power-up, increasing the Anti-titan capability and at the same time decreasing specialization, thus making the Moray good at dealing with every 4+ reinforced target like Leman Russ companies and so on. Some may wish to playtest it tough. Commentaries on the current review proposal ***last updated***: 30th Oct 2005. Manta tweaks The Manta was mainly given a face lift. Here is the changes walkthough Railcannons Here are the new statlines for Railcannon and Tl Railcannons: (single) Railcannon 90cm MW3+ Fixed Forward, Titan Killer(D3) Twin-linked Railcannons 90cm MW2+ Fixed Forward, Titan Killer(D3+1) As you can see, the statline of a single railcannon is rather poor for a Tau weapon: the 3+ to-hit value makes the Railcannon inferior to a Volcano Cannon. The main purpose is of course balance. However from a background perspective, this shows that Tau just don?t master all areas of 40th milleinum warfare despite their technology. The Tau lack the human?s 10.000+ years of experience in dealing with titans. > Twin-linked Railcannons: change from Titan killer (D6) to Titankiller (D3+1) The main reason motivating this change is for this is a game in which I managed to kill a Reaver battle titan outright by scroring a 6, and this caused a lot of frustration to my opponent. So the main purpose motivating this change is making the Tau more fun to play against. The average value has slightly diminished, from 3.5 hits to 3 hits on average. > Twin-linked Railcannons: range upped to 90cm. I wanted the weapon to be true to its existing background in Codex:Tau, which describes it as having more range than a railgun. I also didn't feel there was a real need to tone down the range. Anti-aircraft abilities AA is part of support craft identity, and is basically an heritage from their role in BFG, in which a Manta missile destroyer can go toe-to-toe with thunderbolt squadrons. While in the atmosphere, these abilities are lessened however, and only the fastest weapon systems can engage ennemy aircrafts properly. Anti-Aircraft firepower is dispatched between two different weapon systems matching 2 different purposes: - Long Barrelled Burst-Cannons provide AA cover for the support craft himself. - Hunter missiles provide supporting AA cover to nearby ground units (typically, a Manta will provide Ground and AA support to the transported hunter-cadre). Please note that Hunter missiles are Fixed Forward. Evaluating the Manta?s main weapon loadout - Tl Railguns ?= an upgunned volcano cannon (deal +1hit) - Heavy Ion Phalanx = Gatling-Blaster/Turbolaser Moray tweaks - Firefight value upped to 5+. The Moray is one of thos units whose 6+ firefight value seems problematic. I just seems a bit unnecessarily weak in an assault. Let me explain: - Manta rolls 8 x 5+ dices and costs 850 points - Moray rolls 3 x 6+ dices and costs 300 points Add to that 5+ reinforced versus 4+ reinforced. -> Morays take twice more hits. The math is easy here: the Moray is twice worse than the Manta in an assault for the points. That's unnecessary IMO, and I think that upping the FF value of the Moray to 5+ seems reasonable, in order to make the Moray as good offensively for the points (but still lack defence). List of discarded ideas - Comments in other posts revealed a general consensus that Morays should be seen as a matchup for titans rather than superheavies -> Initial proposal discarded (not enought main guns). - AA on ion phalanx is abandonned because it is a bit over the top in a Moray squadron (Possibly 12 AA 6+ shots!)
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Honda	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:06 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	I'm fine with those, what are the proposed points cost? Same except for the Moray? _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Dobbsy	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:26 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am Posts: 4499 Location: Melbourne, Australia	I really like the sound of these adjustments Baron - good work! mmmm Rail Cannon - gives a "bigger" impression to me On the name issue- how about a one that says what they are - Railgun Battery
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baronpiero	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:31 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm Posts: 186	@Honda: Yes, the MMD still costs 850 pts (I only indicated the changes). @Dobbsy: the name you proposed seems better. I'll change it. About the Moray: what is your opinion about the critical hit 'Destroyed'? I mainly put it because I see the Moray closer to a super-heavy tank than an actual titan despite it being fearless. Is it OK?
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Tastyfish	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:44 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:35 pm Posts: 120	I always assumed the Moray was a scout titan rather than a superheavy tank (the fact it has a shield, Imperial ones seem larger due to their extra shields whilst their DC is the same as a superheavy. Its also the same price as a warhound and 50pts more than a shadowsword (which as you said is better at killing titans) the less lethal criticals seems alright at the time being especially as it can't hide from stuff like a superheavy can.
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:38 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	The Moray and Manta are Tau's versions of the titans in my mind. These concepts are sacred to me. I don't want to compare either to a WE like the scorpionfish, orca, or dragon fish as both are sooo much more to me. I'm respectfully but adamantly opposed to the suggestion to: 1) reduce the points of a moray 2) cut the ion phalanx FP in half on the moray 3) a change to the current moray critical The ion-phalanx is strong, no question. It also works. Many formations are strong in epic - some moreso than I'd ever expect. We don't have barrages and make up for it on the occasional mass-damage potential systems. I don't want to mess with something that is working *really* well. It's an offensive asset that has uses. It offers well more shots than any rail version, and will have a very useful role. Its uses vs. titans, RA WE's, and RA infantry are limited by comparison to the rail version. The lack of resilence, always being seen, and inability to upgrade the formation beyond two units definitely warrant a higher offensive yield. The formation with ion-phalanx has proven itself IMHO. I see no reason to fix something that ain't broke. I do agree that the moray 1) FF value should be increased 2)  slow firing restriction be removed from the rail system. 3) rail sustem should go from TK(d6) to a TK(d3) 4) should go to 2 shots instead of 1 5) rail system should be 3+ not 2+ 6) rail system range should 90cm Therefore, Rail System - 2x 90cm 3+ TK(d3) I've justified the points and recomendation for this trial in a similar thread. At 300 points per moray, and considering the resiliency, always be seen, and lack of upgrades to the formation, this math works very well IMHO - enough to give it a try in test anyway. Its a definite face lift to this version of the vehicle and an actual threat to enemy reavers if shields are down - as they most definitely should be. Enemy titans are definitely a threat to our morays. _________________ Rob
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baronpiero	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:40 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm Posts: 186	Comments quite convinced me that Morays should be seen as a matchup for titans rather than superheavies. And I don't find that my initial proposal reflects that properly (not enought main guns). So let?s tweak the 4.1 Moray rather than building anew (changes to 4.1 are highlighted in orange) Moray Assault Ship Cost: 1-2 assault ships for 300 pts each Type M Ar CC FF War engine 20cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Damage Capacity 3. Tau Deflector Shield. Critical Hit Effect: The Moray?s fire control systems are damaged. No weapons may be fired at ranges greater than 45cm, and the Moray suffers an additional blast marker. Further Critical hits will cause an additional point of damage. Notes: Support Craft, Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Fearless. May have either 2x Ion Phalanx OR Twin-linked Railcannons as a main weapon. Weapons Rng Fp Notes Twin-linked Railcannons 90cm MW2+ Fixed Forward, Titan Killer(D3+1) (or) 2x Heavy Ion Phalanx 60cm 3x AP3+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Twin-linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT4+ ?Fixed Forward 2x Long Barrelled Burst Cannons 30cm AP4+/AA6+ [ - ] Hunter Missile 75cm AT6+/AA6+ ?Fixed Forward, Guided Munitions Ion phalanx Moray is almost unchanged apart from auxiliary weapon systems. - AA on ion phalanx is abandonned forever because it is a bit over the top in an assault ship squadron (12 AA6+ shots!). - As a counterpart, AA is reported on auxiliary weapon systems: Tracer missile has been replaced by 2x Hunter missiles to give the Manta minimal Anti-aircraft capability while in the atmosphere. Burst cannons are now long barrelled to further increase Anti-aircraft abilities. Railcannon Moray mounts the same Twin-linked rail system as the Manta. It?s not slow-firing anymore etc... @Tactica: I am a little shy about unlinking the Railcannons to 2x MW3+ TK(D3) @90cm. It seems that the rail Moray won?t be specialized enought then (and would be a little too good at taking out Leman-russ companies when sustain-firing for instance). By the way, I temporarily squeezed the Railgun battery. Better sort out existing issues first. Manta Missile Destroyer Cost: 1 ground support craft for 850 points Type M Ar CC FF War Engine 20cm 4+ 6+ 5+ Damage Capacity 8. Tau Deflector Shield. Critical Hit Effect: The Manta?s fire control systems are damaged. No weapons may be fired at ranges greater than 45cm, and the Manta suffers an additional blast marker. Further Critical hits will cause an additional point of damage. Notes: Support Craft, Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Fearless, Transport (may carry 16 of the following units: Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Stealth, Gun Drones, Heavy Drones, Crisis, Broadsides; Crisis and Broadsides take up two spaces each; additionally, up to four of the following vehicles may be carried as well: Devilfish, Hammerhead, Swordfish, Skyray, Stingray, Piranha, Tetra). Weapons Rng Fp Notes Twin-linked Railcannons 90cm MW2+ Fixed Forward, Titan Killer(D3+1) 2x Heavy Ion Phalanx 60cm 3x AP3+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Twin-linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT4+ Fixed Forward 4x Long Barrelled Burst Cannons 30cm AP4+/AA6+ ?- 2x Hunter Missiles 75cm AT6+/AA6+ Fixed Forward, Guided Munitions Manta auxiliary weapons have been tweaked aswell to add AA. Thoughts?
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Nerroth	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:51 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	The Lar'shi should keep its two pin-point attacks, it has four ship-mounted Ion Cannon (Generally the ratio seems to be 2 points of lance shots in BFG per pin-point attack in Epic, so the 2 lances on a Lunar's broadside equals 1 pin-point attack - and the Lar'shi can't orbital bombard...) Plus if there were room for the Custodian, it would allow that ship to only have 1 pin-point attack, yet a larger transport capacity (and a higher missile count if that idea took hold!) Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Honda	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:44 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	BP & Tactica: I'm liking the direction the Morays are going. As listed in the proposal, which version would you prefer to take now? The reason I ask, is that it seems like a few people got good at using the IP version because the slow firing RC was a poor investment (which I felt the same about). Now that we might be working towards a viable RC version, is that the "no brainer" choice if you want that vehicle? BTW, I finally finished the "story" part of IA3, well actually all of it. Very interesting the heavy useage of the MMD by the Tau to maneuver into combat. I realize that it's just fluff, but an interesting way of looking at things. Which kind of is my way of sequeing into the FF increase. I know that Tactica is high on a FF of +5 and I don't know that I'm for or against the increase (assuming that I can get what I would consider a logical reason), but would either of you mind answering why the +5 is important? I'm sure some of my puzzlement is due to my lack of experience with this version, but it seems to me that a vehicle (whatever it is) with a ranged capability in the 60 - 90 cm range should not be closing into FF range with anyone. So is this an "anti-assault" feature that is being built in to the vehicle? I know in IA3 (it's fluff, but it could be considered a design capability) they talk about the Raptors' Landspeeders chasing off Manta's, so there's some indication of a "vulnerablity" from close up, but without understanding the intent of the upgrade, I don't know if what is being asked for is a valid request. So...would either of you get me some "learnin'?" ? ? _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Nerroth	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:38 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	I'd chalk the Mantas' caution around those Raptors 'speeders to 2 things: *Over-cautiousness on the behalf of the Manta's kor'vre, and/or *A classic example of Kau'yon, drawing the more mobile Marine assets from their lines, exposing them to concentrated fire. Given that the IA3 fluff is - annoyingly - written from an Imperial perspective, I wouldn't be surprised if the perception which was reported was the first, yet the true intent was the second... Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Honda	Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:29 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	Nerroth, Interesting interpretation. As much as I like the strategy behind #2, I think the Tau would not gamble with assets like that, so I'm more inclined to think #1. The LS's would be running rings around the Manta until it got to speed and given the amount of "other" weaponry fielded by the Manta, it would seem like it ought to be able to defend itself. So, hard to say, both are plausible. Still, it seems to indicate a hesitancy on the Tau with their big stuff. As far as telling the human perspective, perhaps it is annoying, but I wonder if the story had been told by the other side, whether there would have been enough material to fill out the book. After all, the Tau could have just as easily said, We came to help out and except for a few annoying instances where firearms were required, we were able to add a new system to our empire. Also, I think writing in character (i.e. Tau) is much more difficult to do over the breath of the book and therefore, it might have been more accessible to FW to take that approach. [OT] If you ever are interested in a similar treatment, read Ralph Peters "Red Army". This book details an invasion of Europe by the Russian army, only using their perspective. He did a very good job of showing how the Russians could have taken over Europe without defeating the Americans. Gave the Pentagon the heebie-jeebies. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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baronpiero

Post subject: Tau support Crafts and Spacecrafts for 4.2 Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:18 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm Posts: 186

Nerroth The Lar'shi should keep its two pin-point attacks, it has four ship-mounted Ion Cannon (Generally the ratio seems to be 2 points of lance shots in BFG per pin-point attack in Epic, so the 2 lances on a Lunar's broadside equals 1 pin-point attack - and the Lar'shi can't orbital bombard...) I didn't know that kind of conversion exists. I made this suggestion for the hero because it seemed a little too good for 150 points. Then do you think the following could make it: Hero class cruiser (300 points): - 2x Pin-point attack MW 2+ TK D3+1 - Transport capacity to be determined 'Smaller' cruiser (150 points) - 1x Pin-point attack MW 2+ TK D3+1 - Transport capacity to be determined Note: costs are lined-up on those of eldar ships that are quite similar for the points. The difference is the following: - Eldar ships can choose between pin-point attack and orbital bombardment - Tau ships cannot use orbital bombardment but have better pin-point attacks as a counterpart. ? Honda BP & Tactica: I'm liking the direction the Morays are going. As listed in the proposal, which version would you prefer to take now?

On paper, I expect both of them to be quite useful.

- Railcannon moray will be quite good at taking out anemy war engines. I also expect the 90 cm range to be helpful to snipe and break small formations like the typical Eldar and IG artillery Formations.

- Ion phalanx Moray is the real 'assault ship' in my mind. It should be best used when planetfalling near a target formation. It is a more offensive choice, and should be used to set deadly traps: Tau ground units will have to drive ennemy units near the landing zone and then ambushing them using a deadly crossfire. Please also note that coordinate fire means crossfire, therefore Ion phalanx Moray may have their war engine killing time aswell if played correctly.


Honda
but would either of you mind answering why the +5 is important?

It's not a matter of range actually: the 60cm range of the ion phalanx is commonplace. The range of the Railcannon in the proposed version is very good but the weapon is very specialized in the WE-killing/artillery-sniping role.

Here's why I think it is important (cut and paste here): I agree that a Manta is rather weak offensively in an assault -for a titan-. I won't try to convince you if it is fluffically acceptable or not for this is a matter of taste. Still I see an objective reason to keep it that way: IMO, the risky nature of an assault for support crafts goes a long way in balancing the planetfall ability, which seem to be costed 'free' when analysing the point cost of support crafts. This way you'd better choose a safe landing zone.

I hope this helps.


Ok then I'll update the initial topic