Quote (primarch @ Oct. 07 2005,00:28)

Hi! I sometimes wonder that if russia had invaded that would have been a major disaster for them. Imagine the germans not having to chase their prey, but have them all up front ready for encirclement and decimation. They after all would not benefit from their experience as they did in real life with the germans. Another twist would be, what if the germans would have treated the citizens of the ukraine and other soviet republics better? They were greated well initially. Heck, perhaps even granting them limited independance in exchange for manpower... Primarch

Ok, the what if about Germany NOT invading Soviet Union would have required a brain transplant for Hitler & the rest of his high-level cronies OR the removal of said people.

"Lebensraum" from the "untermensch bolshevik hordes" was one of the cornerstones of Nazism and the true goal of Hitler. As a matter of fact, he didn't believe France and Britain would go to war over Poland and, judging from his past experienes (Rhineland, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia), that is not really surprising.

As stated previously he really didn't want to attack Britain. In fact, it has been claimed that he turned the war with Britain to one more justification for operation Barbarossa: if Britain is deprived of her last potential ally in the continent she'll sue for peace.  

As for treating the Ukraininans & White Russians better, it would also have required said transplant/removal. They were the slavic untermesch, the slave race to be exploited by the herrenvolk. The ?bermesch/untermensch racial classification was also one of the cornerstones of Nazism.

When it comes to the jets, Galland's claim about 262s has been disproven many times. 262 wouldn't have been ready in 1942, and even if it was, there still was the problem with the engines. Germany was lacking stategic ores, specifically the ones required in making turbojet turbine wings. They were forced to use (inferior) alternative materials, which made the engines less robust. In the end there were large amount of ready airframes without engines.

There's one what-if I would be interested to see, but it would require a personality transplant for Churchill.    What if Britain had made some kind of clandestine and unofficial agreement with Germany (a peace treaty is far too far-fetched), in which they agreed not to interfere with Barbarossa in return for (temporary) cessation of hostilities? In effect, the idea would be to swat two flies with one stroke: let communism and nazism bleed each other dry. Churchill didn't exactly love communists, that's why the personality transplant would not be too large, but he despised nazis even more and that's why it would be needed. He would need to be colder and more calculating for this what-if to have any chance of happening.

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Yeah, I remember the comments about the Jumo 004 jets being really fragile and slow to produce.  At the very least, they needed stainless steel for the turbine wheels (the 'hot section' of the engines), but you can get away with aluminum in the compressor section (at the expense of some durability).

I thought that the Germans had the best naval firecontrol in the world.  The Americans were right behind them, and an Iowa can get shells to within 15' of point of aim at 20 nm range.

A colder, more calculating Churchill?  That's a scary thought.  I think I can see it happening, though.

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Hi!

How about a more plausible "what if" that doesnt require "brain transplants"...

..germany NOT declaring war on the US after pearl habor....

Primarch

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Quote (primarch @ Oct. 07 2005,20:16)

Hi! How about a more plausible "what if" that doesnt require "brain transplants"... ..germany NOT declaring war on the US after pearl habor.... Primarch

It was only a matter of time until the US was "officially" be at war with Germany. FDR did everything in his power to see to that. Hitler declaring war made his job that much easier.

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Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ Oct. 07 2005,15:25)

Quote (primarch @ Oct. 07 2005,20:16) Hi! How about a more plausible "what if" that doesnt require "brain transplants"... ..germany NOT declaring war on the US after pearl habor.... Primarch It was only a matter of time until the US was "officially" be at war with Germany. FDR did everything in his power to see to that. Hitler declaring war made his job that much easier.

Hi!

True, but without a declaration of war from germany and the Japanese being the the aggressor, FDR would have had a lot more trouble justifying war against germany.

Germany declared war on the US believing Japan would do the same versus Russia. They were wrong. Even a couple of years of peace between the US and germany means a lot of bad for the English and Russians.

Primarch

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As I said, without the required Naval and Air assets, the Germans could not do "Seelowe" ... ?and Germany lacked both. Plus the war in the East, and more and more American Forces and supplies as the war went on ... the invasion would become improbable ... if not impossible ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

I think Mojarn brings up an interesting point.
Of course this is a simplified version, but one might look at it this way:

Hitlers actions up until the invasion of Poland points towards an eastward expansion. In the east lied the Nazi's great ideological enemy (the Soviet) and there were plenty of strategic resources. Hitler didn't really have much incentive to go to war against western Europe (well maybe except for France because of the historical feud and the humiliation of the Versailles treaty.) It was France and Britain who declared war on Germany because of their alliance with Poland. and only after that did the Germans invade western Europe.
I think it is not unreasonable to think that Operation Barbarossa was the primary objective of the war and the campaigns in western Europe more of an "accident" triggered because Hilter wanted to "keep his back clear". The organization of the German armed forces also point in that direction: A war in the east would require very little - if any naval assets.
When the Germans started to build up their armed forces an invasion of Britain was never the plan. When war broke out Hilter was distracted and shifted focus from the eastern campaign. Unfortunately (well fortunately actually  ) he completely underestimated the role America would play in keeping Britain alive.
The german armed forces could not take Britain because they were never built for that purpose. They lacked the Long Range Bombers, Carriers and Landig craft needed to attack an island.
His second mistake was then to launch Barbarossa before the western front was stabilized. Being a gambleing nature Hitler believed he had to act now before the Soviet could build up more strenght. Sure the situation wasn't ideal but if Barbarossa was ever to be then now would be the time.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers!

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Quote Lion of the Stars
I thought that the Germans had the best naval firecontrol in the world.  The Americans were right behind them, and an Iowa can get shells to within 15' of point of aim at 20 nm range.
End Quote

I am always amazed by comments like these. The USN fire control systems were #1 in WWII, bar none. Both the Iowa and the never built Montana class were superior to anything floating on the water at the time (And that includes the Yammato).

The Bismark fiasco is a good example of this. Sure she sunk the Hood with a single lucky shot, it happens in war, but the P.O. Wales and the Bismark blazed away at each other to little effect for the rest of that short engagement.

Then in the final battle the Bismarks fire control systems went down almost at the start of the fight, why, well it wasn't a lucky hit, it was because the brilliant German Engineers designed her with the communication systems for that fancy fire control system outside the armor plating and along the paper thin areas of the super-structure! It really didn't matter where the first 16" round of the Rodney plowed into the super-structure the fire control system was going to be put out of action the moment it hit. And on a battleship the super-structure is a big target.

On the other hand US designers put the fire control systems communication lines inside the belt armor, and below the water line to protect them from being taken out. Time and again in the Pacific US ships out shot their Japanese opponents, with a few exceptions, at least once I can think of in the Aleutians when the USN was not only outnumbered but out classed in ship weight. In fact the Brooklyn's super-structure had over one hundred holes in it after the first engagement of Iron Bottom Sound, and she was still afloat, still made it home, and was still plowing holes in Japanese ships with her main guns all directed by the finest fire control system in the world at the time.

In no way does the dismal record of the KM surface fleet come close to matching the performance of the USN, shot for shot the USN did better.

Galland also said he knew the War was lost the moment he saw his first US Piloted P-51 Mustang. That aircraft's performance, firepower and range makes a mockery of anything the Luftwaffe put into the air, including the Me 262.

The Germans try to build a twin engine fighter and you get the dismal Me 110.

The British try to build a twin engine fighter, and they turn it into a bomber because it cannot perform well enough.

The US builds a twin engine fighter and it has more firepower facing in one direction then any aircraft to fly in WWII, has enough armor plating to survive serious damage, is reliable, and is nicknamed The Forked Tailed Devil by it's opponents.

US WWII Aircraft and Naval designers are never given the credit they deserve for the excellant jobs they did.

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I see Jaldon and I read the same books and saw the same History Channel shows !  BTW, my Mom was a "Rosie the Riveter" during WWII.  She worked on P-39 Air Cobras, the Yanks didn't like the P-39, but the U.S.S.R. got a bunch of them !  

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Hi!

Good points Jaldon.

Primarch

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Quote (Legion 4 @ Oct. 09 2005,05:31)

I see Jaldon and I read the same books and saw the same History Channel shows !

Me too!  

[/QUOTE]The USN fire control systems were #1 in WWII, bar none.[QUOTE]

And not just WWII, but also Korea and Vietnam. During the Korean War, the Iowas were more accurate and effective than air support. Something like 75% of Korea was in range of the Iowas' 16" rifles and the 4 Iowas fired more 16" shells then than during WWII. From what I've read, the North Korean and Chinese soldiers [/B]hated[B], maybe even feared, them.

Same thing happened in Vietnam. The New Jersey alone managed to force the VC and NVA to clear out of a 25 mile radius.

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Hi Guys,

It's a pity that they retired those classic war wagons...

We don't have 16" guns anymore and missiles are a poor substitute for shells that size. Too expensive...

Rcokets are comparable though...

The main reason they were retired is because of the huge manpower requirements and the fact that they used machinery that we can't easily provide replacement parts for anymore. The US metals industry isn't what is was in WWII.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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Good points Maksim. I agree, it is a pity that they are retired. Ronald Reagan certainly knew their value.

Bombardment by the Iowas was far more cost effective than today's ordnance and the shells Wisconsin and Missouri(?) used during Desert Storm were manufactured in 1945! The only thing aircraft carriers have over their 16" guns is range.

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The only thing aircraft carriers have over their 16" guns is range.

Quote (Tas @ Oct. 11 2005,09:39)

The only thing aircraft carriers have over their 16" guns is range.

No, I dont agree.

I love the old Battlewgaons too, but the flexibility of a CV's airwing is incomparible and a CVN's endurance is a significant force multiplier.

The biggest problem all these platforms have is that they are still a single platform, vulnerable to a ranage of threats and once they are gone (sunk or damaged), their force projection capability is removed. ?Thats why there is such a big emphasis on network enabled multi-role platforms to remove critical nodes.