Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?* |
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Grimshawl
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Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*  Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:09 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:11 pm
Posts: 208
Location: Newark Ohio
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reading your play by play description of the fight I'd be hard pressed to name an army list that wouldnt have cleaned the space marines clock with the horible dice rolling he was experiencing that first turn, his formations were also very bunched up, probably to maximise cover or keep close enough to get maximum help in assaults, but in the end he paid a heavy price by being caught intermingled so often, it really sounds as if the battle had more to do with the space marine players luck and bad placement then which army he was facing off agauanst. Not saying your questions about the daemons arent valid, just that the one sided nature of the battle came down to these two other issues.
_________________ who are we to bring down the stars http://lostandfoundohio
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?* Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:37 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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I gotta go with Grim. The all-Termie army is very difficult to play and it sounds like it was not a good showing tactically.
It sounds like they didn't understand the activation system. While I assumed that the first failed activation was due to BMs on the target, it would be completely impossible for an off-board air assault formation (the SC) which is not retaining to have any activation penalties on the first turn.
It further sounds as if the dice truly sucked. 6 unopposed activations from the enemy is crazy (though it was apparently an error). Losing 12 Termies twice in a row is absolutely ludicrous. Even if the CSMs had twice what you described, there should have been an intact formation out of each assault.
Overall, I would say it's value as a playtest game is negligible - 8K points, unconventional army composition, incorrect use of the rules, and ridiculously off-the-scale die rolls.
Why is the DP not a WE like Avatar? |
I thought you played 40K? Daemon princes do not have to be Monstrous creatures. In fact, for obvious reasons, it's a bad tactical choice.
Why is the average number of deamons rolled up to 8 now from 7 with augment... [lots of summoning questions] |
Do you realize that the average daemon cost from your description was more than 35 points? Each of those assaults cost 285 points in daemons and upgrades where previously it would have cost 125 for 1 less daemon.
In any case, the real question is not comparative to the previous version, it's whether 850 points of daemons (375 for upgrades, 480 for daemon pool) were disproportionately effective. In this case? Yes, but it was largely due to stupendously bad die rolls.
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Tactica
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Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?* Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:21 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
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Dysartes,
I didn't post the game to SG because I didn't play the game, just watched it... and I didn't take notes or anything, so its possible that I could have some things messed up in the post. I didn't think it was really the kind of feedback PG was looking for - i.e. second hand feedback that wasn't exactly a full battle rep.
Grim,
I agree. Although the termy's were intentionally intermingled to maximize their effectiveness by the player - atleast that was my take on his strategy, the end result was he couldn't activate anything to save his hide, furthermore, it seemed like he was saving ok to below average. The chaos player wasn't rolling unbelievably great or anything, but the amount of dice he was throwing vs. the amount of dice the marine player was throwing just were overwhelming.
NH,
8K game is much larger than should be used for a batrep, I agree. I think the players knew how to activate the formations. 
I think the marine player had blast markers on almost everyone of his termy formations from teleport and/or chaos retaliation and so probably forgot that he didn't have to apply the negative 1 to his ground assault activation. Oops, more of an error than an ignorance of the rules thing.
Regards to DP, sure, I play chaos in both games. However, I didn't post a list of my questions, it was a list of the questions by the players that I overheard. I think I know the answers to some of those questions, or at least have an answer to some of them. I communicated my opinions to the players too. I thought the questions would be of interest to the masses as 'other people' are thinking about these concepts. Nothing more.
Regards to Daemons, yes, I'm aware of the costs, again - the questions were derivatives of the game - whether imbalanced or not or played correctly or not. I haven't played the new list and am not claiming its imbalanced or dead on yet. I thought the masses might like to hear the questions that were discussed post game - not trying to say/imply anything else.
Regards to the dice, from what I seen. The marine player was having pretty average dice on hitting and saving - though the chaos player was saying the marine player had 'hot dice' and what not... the reality of it is that the 4+RA was really saving the Marine players arse. He had the occasional above average roll, that's for sure. The chaos player had some crazy amounts of dice in some of his combats. Granted, it was an 8K game with massive units and some of the combats were huge, but the chaos player was clearly rolling worse than the marine player. He was throwing a LOT more dice per few hundred points of models in combat though... there was no question about that. The numbers just looked to over run the termy's.
I chalked this game up to more of a "wow"...
1) never seen somebody fail so many activations,
2) termy's blow if they can't get into base to base with chaos
3) 8K of Chaos can FF down terminators like hot knife through butter
So - "wow" - more than anything else.
_________________
Rob
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Jaldon
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Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?* Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:50 am |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
Posts: 720
Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
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About the 8,000 pt city fight, just my two cents anyways.
This is a 'just curious' question, but how big was the table, 8,000 points is a lot to cram into a 4x6, and even a 4x8 table.
Sorta favors Horde type armies if it was.
CSM does very well when things are close up, and there is no room to maneuver, SM does well when things are more open and they have room to maneuver. It would seem that this battle was against the SM from the start (A city fight not the best terrain for the SM).
I disagree with the players comments that an SM army has to use Alpa Strikes to accomplish anything. In my experiences breaking in new players, it is the mark of a newbie SM player that falls back onto Alpha Strikes as the only solution to gaining ground with the SM.
Experienced players learn how to maximize the SMs strengths, to accomplish their missions, without the need for Alpha Strikes, then when they do use them, they are even more effective.
That said I do believe the SM Army needs some minor tweaks to balance it out a bit visa vie it's smaller average formation sizes, but it is an effective army without them.
As for winning with SM, I do just fine with them just this weekend I played two battles using them, and lost one close one to the CSM (Tie Breaker), and spanked the LatD (Though a two activations of real bad dice rolls by the LatD player turned it from a close battle into a walkover).
In neither battle did I use an LC or TH, and only one Terminator Formation was used in the secon battle.
I do admit the SM Army is tough to use and the learning curve is much longer, but IMHO it is the mark of a good Epic-A player that can use the SM effectively.
Jaldon 
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Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
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Tactica
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Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?* Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:37 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
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NH,
no worries. 
Jaldon,
I agree with you. This marine player is decent, but not a vet by any means. He's the kind of player that knows the rules for the most part, but can miss the subtlties of a tactic in development which causes him to take a pounding. He's definitely not an opponent you take lightly, but one that can be managed. He likes to go heavy with a particular tactic - i.e. rapid strike in this case. He's this way in every game he plays. The problem is you never know which way he's leaning from game to game, so it can force the opponent to really be on his toes.
I agree also that chaos matched up well against this army. If you put your entire army in chaos assault range and they have the option to FF you or engage you in base-to-base, and they get a load of activations before you get your first successful one, you probably shouldn't expect much performance out of your list.
Table size was a 4x8, but most of the battle took place in a 4x4 space. The chaos player had his formations set up in close - tight almost base to base formations though. I think he was setting up to prepair for a charge and wanted to get as many of his models together as he could.
The chaos player did make one interesting observation I failed to mention earlier. He said he was really worried about the termy's all coming in on him. He said it made him uncomfortable in set up as his army is at its weakest on the first turn as no daemons have summoned yet.
I thought that was an interesting observation that I hadn't considered before.
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Rob
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Tactica
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Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?* Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:16 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
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NH,
Keep in mind the chaos player deployed heavily into the city - due to campaign game.... imagine via ASCII vision...
1.2.3.4
5.6.7.8
Chaos was deployed in 2, 3, 6, and 7. In the center of the table, there was a gigantic spire. They were fighting over the spire - so this was NOT a normal tournament game. Sorry if I didn't make that clear originally.
I agree, forcing out the WE's first would have been a choice manouvre.
Regarding the turn 2 teleport and crossfire, I'm not sure that would have worked. Initial formations plus daemons made for some pretty sizable formations. That would have helped though I'm sure. Couldn't have made things worse for the guy and would have been a better approach to dug in chaos. If the formations broke in turn 2, I wonder if it would have been enough to secure victory in turn 3 or if the marines would have still lost too many models to be formidable.
Still, getting to turn 2 would have been a huge improvement for them LOL, so hard to argue with the tactic
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Rob
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