Page 2 of 2

[ 28 posts ]

Go to page Previous  1, 2

Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List?
Chroma	Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List? Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:49 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada	Okay, I'm just going to ask one more question about Ulthwe balance and then stand down: Do people believe that the advantages of Ulthwe (SR5, Black Guardians, potential activation advantage, Seer Council) are balanced by the disadvantages (no Aspect Warhost, no Autarch, small Aspect Troupes) sufficiently that their units should cost exactly the same as Biel-Tan's? I can essentially duplicate a Biel-Tan army with Ulthwe's list, nearly model for model, and Uthwe will always be superior due to the SR5 and unit(s) of 1+ Guardians. ?Do people play Biel-Tan without Guardian units to take advantage of massed Aspects? ?That would seem to be a brutal disadvantage to loose Farsight and the Avatar.  If you're air dropping in Aspects via Vampire, the initial attack is exactly the same with a Warhost or two Troupes. I can't see how people can see this as balanced, and Battlestats seems to be showing the same picture.  And I do believe that "comparing across armylists" is a valid approach in this case.  If it is balanced and I'm missing something, please let me know; I'll get off the soapbox and get back to playing. _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top

Tiny-Tim	Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List? Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:04 pm
Hybrid Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm Posts: 4893 Location: North Yorkshire	I agree that a BT version of a Ulthwe list will be inferior and that is how it should be. A BT list as would probably not work at all. With the play testing we have tried to follow the lead set by other lists that formations that have already been given a value keep it for a variant list. Now a question we did look long and hard at was should Black Guardians cost more. After testing we said no. I think that I should add that I now believe that the cost for Big and Uge Speed Freak Warbands is too low and would like to see them increased, but that's for another topic. _________________ _________________ www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion
Top

Chroma	Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List? Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:29 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada	Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 20 2005 July,16:04) I agree that a BT version of a Ulthwe list will be inferior and that is how it should be. A BT list as would probably not work at all. With the play testing we have tried to follow the lead set by other lists that formations that have already been given a value keep it for a variant list. But what about an Ulthwe version of a Biel-Tan list?  How many Aspect Warhosts do you usually field in 2700 points? But, and that's my point, the formations in the Ulthwe list aren't the same as in the Biel-Tan list, so they shouldn't cost the same; a little point tweaking can go a long way to differentiating the units. Could you please give the reasoning behind not increasing the cost of the Black Guardian Hosts, or link to the discussion on the old boards, if any?  I'd gladly pay 25-50 points more for 1+ initiative. _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top

Clockwerks	Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List? Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:03 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:51 am Posts: 122	I will generally only ever feild one aspect host in a 2,700pt list... As a rule I'm usually loathe to spend allot of points on a single formation, instead feeling much more comfortable to spend the points on smaller formations to work in unison. Adam
Top

nealhunt

Post subject: Thoughts and Opinions on Ulthwe List? Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:05 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Do people play Biel-Tan without Guardian units to take advantage of massed Aspects?  That would seem to be a brutal disadvantage to loose Farsight and the Avatar. I not uncommonly see a single Guardian host to get those advantages.  My regular opponent uses a single Guardian host for area denial.  That's typically the only Guardians. If you're air dropping in Aspects via Vampire, the initial attack is exactly the same with a Warhost or two Troupes.

The follow up is dramatically different.

Most likely, Ulthwe will have a crippled formation (if not outright destroyed) and no way to combine those Exarchs (assuming both survive) into a single 2xInspiring attack.  OTOH, an aspect host will almost certainly survive with 2 Exarchs meaning it is still a serious threat for clipping assaults.

Aspect Hosts provide uses that are simply not available to Ulthwe - truly large formations, firepower-oriented hosts, and hosts of Hawks and Spears which have certain advantages over a mounted troupe in a similar role.

=========

Don't get me wrong, Chroma.  You make excellent points.  There might be a slight advantage to Ulthwe overall and I'm not claiming that there absolutely is not one.  If you want a Guardian or even a troupe-heavy army, I would definitely to go for Ulthwe because they would be better than a Biel Tan version.

I just think that it's close enough to call it done and see it played until the Eldar review.