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E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!!
Legion 4	Post subject: E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!! Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:54 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	All good points, and I have to agree with ^2, aircraft are off and on ... FA is on the board, etc. ...  But "CAS creep", could be a problem and this will change the paradigm completely.  Limiting aircraft (25-33% of TBL, for example), and hopefully G/W won't creat numerous aircraft models (but it appears they have trouble making any models for certain armies!).  We play it, aircraft are on and off, 25-33% of TBL can be spent on aircraft, Titans and Off Board Spt (equal to E:A BFG Spacecraft).  If you can't buy/get too many on the board, if there is "creep", it will be limited, IMO ...   _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tas	Post subject: E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!! Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:54 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am Posts: 7823 Location: Sydney, NSW	I think the aircraft problem would be better solved by being further abstracted: An aircraft travelling at combat speeds with rockets and bombs and the like (which can be lobbed etc) would spend a miniscule amount of time over such a small area as the table represents.  Thus a series of mods based on army design, assignment of proetctive air cover (CAP) and the like can be made.  Then let the actual model (if it doesnt abort/get shotdown) do an attack run and then get removed.  Quick and easy Advanced Squad Leader uses this sort of system and it works very well.  And that is a much much more complex system than anything GW have dreamed up! _________________ Tas My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/ My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/ My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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pixelgeek	Post subject: E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!! Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:07 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (Tas @ 16 2005 July,23:54) An aircraft travelling at combat speeds with rockets and bombs and the like (which can be lobbed etc) would spend a miniscule amount of time over such a small area as the table represents. Don't forget that the ranges are meant to be logarthmic(sp) and not linear. As well the aircraft are meant to be doing their full approach moves on the table so it represents more than just the basic attack run which would be, if we follow the "an assault is a 40K game" rough scale and time guide, when the player finishes the aircrafts movement and fire. So the aircraft is on table significantly longer than its approach move and based on the scale it travels a significant distance when it does so _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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Tas	Post subject: E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!! Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:10 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am Posts: 7823 Location: Sydney, NSW	Thanks Pg, but yes I was taking that into account already.   I frequently conduct exercises against modern combat aircraft and maintai that the above hodls true.  Intercepts, IPs, Theatre AD etc all happens at 50+ miles.  The terminal phase of the attack is almost the easy bit for the attacker. _________________ Tas My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/ My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/ My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!! Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:36 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Quote (Squared @ 17 2005 July,10:18) I don't think that there is any problem with aircraft being used as FA. ?The Orks do it and it is not too powerful. *snip* Also the range of most air based weapons should be very short, this is because while the weapon can shoot farther than this range for it to get off more than one shot the aircraft will have to maintain its heading and its speed will take it much closer to the enemy formations. *snip* Essentially yes Current balance works but the introduction of 90cm 2+MW TK(d3) weapons in formations of two with 2 DC each for 500 points (fictious example I hope) would unbalance it. I think the current Eldar stuff pretty much sets the maximum for airpower. Anyhting going beyond them would have to be looked at carefully. Note going beyond isn't just firepower but save and especially DC and squadron size. Bigger squadrons are proportional better than smaller ones as they take less fire. Big squadrons of multiple DC planes are also very good as due to the hit allocation rules it is harder to shoot one down. And the big problem is you can't compensate for this with points like you can ont eh ground as good air defence is not a given with armies. Indeed the current lists (with the exception of the Eldar who are excellent fliers backed up with plentiful and good AA) provide a moderate amount of defence. In my experience in club and tourny that is for the guard 5 or so Hydra and maybe thunderbolts (though often no air), marine 3 or so hunters (they are difficult to get without having a one dimensional list) backed up by landed thunderhawks and about 8-12 flak wagonz for Orks with 3-6 fighter bomberz (though I have to say of all the lists Ork flak varies the most, I've seen everything from ignoring the skies to the full 33% of planes backed up with flakwagonz instead of gunwagonz!). _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Legion 4	Post subject: E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!! Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:41 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Yes, Tas's points are very valid, and both he and I have "real world" experience with CAS. Aircraft should be on and off, with any flak shots in between. And I base many of our rule mods not only on military but gaming experiences, as well.  Just like in AH's ASL, SPI's Combined Arms, etc., etc., aircraft come on board, drop ordinance, fly off and maybe catch AA fire in that brief time ... period.  G/W's rules guys are no where near as "good" as AH's, SPI, etc. G/W wants to appease the kids that buy their games and makes up some silly, unrealistic(?) rules to sell more models/toys.  In theory most FA shouldn't even be on the board. The Epic Yahoo site's Webmaster rants about this all the time, but we can't rent a basketball court to make all Epic ranges in scale !  And I understand about "game ranges", Jervis's "sliding scale", G/W's prediliction for close combat (those rules are bigger than any other section, and we are not pleased with it and will modify it) plus their obsession with making 40K and Epic comparable, etc.  I think what I have seen shows the CAS rules are generally good and limiting aircraft to say 33% seems correct.  If a gamer decides to use CAS instead of FA that is his choice.  And of course Tau, Orks and Chaos have limited FA, so as I said I don't see a problem with this and the E:A rules should reflect limited CAS on board and part of TBL.  Our rules will ... but as always "Do what works for you!"  "It's a poor gunner who blames his weapon for his failure to hit the target."  I think a Russian said that ... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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pixelgeek	Post subject: E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!! Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:23 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 17 2005 July,00:36) I think the current Eldar stuff pretty much sets the maximum for airpower. Anyhting going beyond them would have to be looked at carefully. Anything concrete that you are specifically worried about? _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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pixelgeek	Post subject: E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!! Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:25 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (Tas @ 17 2005 July,00:10) I frequently conduct exercises against modern combat aircraft and maintai that the above hodls true. I'm not sure that Imperial, Ork and Chaos aircraft are "modern".  I'd only really place that adjective on Tau and Eldar aircraft. Hence their increased performance Did you play any of the older versions of th Epic:A aircraft rules? I always thought that the more abstract rules were a bit boring. _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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pixelgeek

Post subject: E:A in US W/D 29er2 !!! Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:35 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Quote (Legion 4 @ 17 2005 July,07:41) Yes, Tas's points are very valid, and both he and I have "real world" experience with CAS. Well "real world" experience is a nice thing but ultimately you're talking about a game and one of the criteria for a game ( as opposed to a simulation) is that it be fun to play. I played SPI's Air War with a friend and while I am sure it was more realistic than "Bommas over da Sulpha Riva" it was dead boring and took forever to play. Not that Bommas was a great game either but if I was forced to play one over the other I wouldn't be playing Air War I'm not knocking realism but I think that some of the earlier rules were more realistic but less interesting to play. In fact some of them were so boring we played without aircraft. G/W's rules guys are no where near as "good" as AH's, SPI, etc. Fair enough. Andy Chambers isn't James Dunnigan but whose company is still in business? And whose games are still on the market? In the end these are still "games" and they need to be fun to play. G/W wants to appease the kids that buy their games and makes up some silly, unrealistic(?) rules to sell more models/toys.

Well thats a nice general rant about GW but I don't think it applies to the current discussion. In fact Epic:A had aircraft rules much more similar to what you are describing but they were... well dull. And, as I have said, who wants to play a game with dulll rules.

As well, this is all a bit moot since the air system is up for fairly significant review and as I mentioned previously you can and should send suggestions regarding the air rules if you find them deficient.

plus their obsession with making 40K and Epic comparable, etc

In what way?