BL: CSM Current List and Forum? |
|
QuintAan
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum?  Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:32 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
 |
 |
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:44 pm
Posts: 173
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
I'm not part of the "inner circle" either, but I have gleaned some info from Pixelgeek's blog:
http://crusades.blogspot.com/
Of particular interest is:
Now if you are a Forum regular and are wondering why you haven't seen an announcement of this that is because all initial playtesting of the list is being done via a private Yahoo Group. I'd like to stress that this is only initial testing. The list will eventually be put into the public for commentary (heck feel free to post comments here) but with the changes in the Forum it was thought that having a distinct playtesting group would make it easier to get the list developed and tested.
The playtest group is currently 15 people but there is room for it to expand as we add new members based on their comments in the new Fanatic Forum. |
_________________
"I think I just had an evilgasm."
|
| Top |
|
 |
|
Tas
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:20 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 7823
Location: Sydney, NSW
|
|
If thats the way he wants to play it - fine. Let him
_________________
Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:49 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
| Quote (Tas @ 12 2005 July,23:20) | | If thats the way he wants to play it - fine. ?Let him |
Yep, not going to worry about being part of an 'inner circle' - but it would be nice to atleast read the results of what the 'chosen' were coming up with.
LOL, a select group seems to really go against the idea of solid playtesting.
The smaller the playtest group, the less likely they are to run into the gambit of problems a new list can incur.
Whatever.
_________________
Rob
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tas
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:53 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 7823
Location: Sydney, NSW
|
Exactly!
and Welcome to the forums Tactica! 
_________________
Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
The_Real_Chris
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:17 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
|
I think the small group isn't a replacement for playtesting, but rather an attempt to get a coherant list together before it goes out to the playtestors.
Look at 40k. Development is done by a small group then the list goes in for destruction testing.
We get to do the destruction testing
_________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
dafrca
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:06 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA
|
| Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 12 2005 July,23:17) | I think the small group isn't a replacement for playtesting, but rather an attempt to get a coherant list together before it goes out to the playtestors.
Look at 40k. Development is done by a small group then the list goes in for destruction testing.
We get to do the destruction testing |
I agree, I think Pixelgeek is right to try and pull together a basic starting point up front. It helps to also keep the focus on the list as they see it.
dafrca
_________________
"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
- Cities of Death, page 59
Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
QuintAan
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:04 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:44 pm
Posts: 173
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
|
So long as it doesn't become an echo chamber that ignores most of the outside feedback it should all be fine.
_________________
"I think I just had an evilgasm."
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
dafrca
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:05 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA
|
| Quote (QuintAan @ 13 2005 July,05:04) | | So long as it doesn't become an echo chamber that ignores most of the outside feedback it should all be fine. |
Again, you see it one way, having tried to start a list and having delt with all the white noise and pages of flame war level arguments, I donot see it the same way.
If Pixelgeek does what he said he will do, and I have no reason to think he will not, then avoiding the months of fighting is wise.
Pull together a basic "Version One List" and then posting it to the vault. Only at that point then it becomes open to public playtesting. The advantage, the list starts with a focus.
dafrca
_________________
"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
- Cities of Death, page 59
Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:57 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
|
[quote="dafrca,13 2005 July,19:05"]
Again, you see it one way, having tried to start a list and having delt with all the white noise and pages of flame war level arguments, I donot see it the same way.
If Pixelgeek does what he said he will do, and I have no reason to think he will not, then avoiding the months of fighting is wise.
Pull together a basic "Version One List" and then posting it to the vault. Only at that point then it becomes open to public playtesting. The advantage, the list starts with a focus.
dafrca |
Sure, there's at least two perspectives here.
The way I see it, a visionary and the consumer.
The visionary or list champion works to avoid a democracy impact and desires a focus group for refining his intended direction of the list for various reasons prior to its release for public consumption.
The consumer or public wants their concerns/desires addressed as a core consideration, not as a retro fit to a vision that they may or may not agree with.
The problem *for some of us* is we are not talking about a brand new list, we are talking about a list that
1) has already been in the public's hands for some time and is now being pulled away.
2) ?is in need of much rework despite the amount of time its been in playtest.
3) is due for completion in the very near future (sept 05?)
At the end of the day, the decision is not ours to make how its handled though so - here's hoping for the best.
EDITED BY VANVLAK 14/7/2005
_________________
Rob
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Baduin
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:53 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:31 pm
Posts: 34
|
|
It has been said that attack is the best defence, but I am not sure if that saying should be applied to army design.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Irondeath
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:05 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:36 pm
Posts: 653
|
|
I?ll retiterate what I said in Quitntaan?s army thread (sorry for hijacking that one, I?m sure he?s reading this?)
BL3.5
Changes include
Limit of four upgrades per formation
CSM Retinue down to 8 CSM units
Cult Marines now an upgrade
0-2 limit on Assault Co
Forlorn Hope only CSM units
Price decrease for CSM Retinue
Summoning Changes (extensive and based on Neal and Audrey's Daemon Pack rules)
Helltalon now 2BP with no Ignore Cover
Critical Changes to Titans
Strategy roll of 6 adds 1D3 daemons, roll of 1 loses 1D6 daemons
IB no longer Inspiring
Champion now 2D3 Augment Summoning
Daemon Prince is now Fearless
Limit of one GD per faction on the table at any one time
|
So a maximum of 2 lone Decimators.
No "Free Fearless" troops.
Retinue price decrease is 280->275 points.
Helltalons at 300 w/o Ignore Cover
Summoning, when it is resolved, will definitely be more exepensive than before, by a factor of 2x or 3x IMO.
All said and done, yours and others concerns are taken seriously and the problems are adressed.
@Tactica: The problem with your style is, IMO, that you mix perfectly valid points, as stated in your post above, with personal attacks, again as above.
This is really unfortunate and detracts and distracts from your points.
Just my opinion, with the intent to offer a different perspective.
_________________ Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!
|
| Top |
|
|
|
nealhunt
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:39 pm |
|
| Purestrain |
 |
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
|
|
I regret that PG felt driven to the decision he made. Nonetheless, I understand. An open forum might have been salvageable but I tend to think that the "free for all" was not providing substantially useful feedback compared to the volume and vitriol being generated.
A prime example of why I agree the open forum was untenable would be the Daemon Summoning debate (and I use the term extremely loosely).
EDITED BY VANVLAK 15/7/2005 - NOTE - THIS POST WAS BY NO MEANS OFFENSIVE OR OTHERWISE DAMAGING TO THE FORUM, HOWEVER, DIRECT REFERENCES TO SECTIONS OF PREVIOUS POSTS WHICH HAVE NOW BEEN DELETED WERE NOW REMOVED. SEE MY APOLOGETIC NOTE FURTHER DOWN.
Edit - I went ahead and deleted all the responses to said text.
_________________
Neal
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: BL: CSM Current List and Forum? Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:16 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
|
[quote="Irondeath,13 2005 July,22:05"][/quote]
@ Irondeath
First, a sincere 'TY' for posting your comments.
Summoning, when it is resolved, will definitely be more exepensive than before, by a factor of 2x or 3x IMO. |
This remains to be seen. I don't know how its being attacked. I note that this is your opinion and not fact.
All said and done, yours and others concerns are taken seriously and the problems are adressed. |
I hope you are right. I would concede that some of my concerns do appear to be getting addressed. I'm not sure how titan crits are going to be handled or if the best approach is being taken since discussion is now private. I guess time will tell.
@Tactica: The problem with your style is, IMO, that you mix perfectly valid points, as stated in your post above, with personal attacks, again as above.
This is really unfortunate and detracts and distracts from your points.
Just my opinion, with the intent to offer a different perspective.
I appreciate the perspective and comments. We all see the world through our own lenses. You see the above as an attack. I respect that. I didn't mean it that way.
