Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 200 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines

 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:26 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:11 pm
Posts: 208
Location: Newark Ohio
I think one of the problems is that some of the other armies really dont have much of a problem dealling with the ADTLs list, like IG steel legion, while others like Space Marines have real dificult time with the list. to point to two different ends of the spectrum. Now this is just my opinion here, but honestly if you look at the old 2nd edition system where titans were well integrated into the system and then look at todays Epic A I think you might see the main difference causing these problems dealling with  titans today is army composition.
As an example I ask you to consider what type of things you use to defeat or destroy titans playing a second edition game of epic. especially look at it from a Imperial perspective, this is what I see when I think about what I personally use, I use titans vs titans or superheavy tanks or large groups of tanks or Knights. those are the most common things I use aguanst titans. now in the current lists you are very limited in points trying to match titans vs titans, and since the Imperial lists are split up now so you cant use IG with SMs like you used to then you find SMs with the short end of the stick when facing titans. The titans of today arent all that different then the 2nd edition titans, as a matter of fact without the location dice involved you actually land more hits on them today then you did back then. Now as I said this is just my opinion but the current Epic has sliced the lists down until they have sliced out alot of the options you used to have to deal with titans, especially for the Space Marines.

_________________
who are we to bring down the stars
http://lostandfoundohio


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:58 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
I don't think titans were any better "integrated" in SM2/TL than they are in EA.  They are just different.  I actually prefer EA because the ways of taking on titans in SM2 were (imho) often squirrelly.

The most reliable way was just to swamp them with lots of infantry.  As the dice added up, the difference in CAF started to disappear and CC got to pick it's target, iirc.  Typically, we would throw a bulk formation at the titan to rack up dice with a few elites for high CAF if needed.

I also greatly disliked the various rapid-kill options.  (Forgive me if some of my specifics are off a bit on technicalities.  It's been a while since I played SM2/TL rules.)

I recall, for example, 2 formations of Shokk Attak gunz killing a Warlord because 1) it was so big that even with scatter, the squigs would still hit it, and 2) by the time you hit the 5th or 6th "stand" in CC odds were roughly even, with more squig attacks to go.

I also many times went for the Vortex Missile insta-kill with the Thousand Sons or Deathstrikes.

And, of course, various other instant death stuff - WBBTs, Eldar D-Cannons, etc., etc..

Basically, titans were big Death Stars - fine versus the expected combat tactics, but horribly vulnerable to various kinds of goofiness.  The insta-kill options were generally very cheap to include in an army, so everyone had one or two and titans were extremely rare in our games.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:30 pm
Posts: 462
Quote (nealhunt @ 01 2005 July,16:58)
The most reliable way was just to swamp them with lots of infantry.  As the dice added up, the difference in CAF started to disappear and CC got to pick it's target, iirc.  Typically, we would throw a bulk formation at the titan to rack up dice with a few elites for high CAF if needed.


While I sorta agree on the lameness of insta-kill weapons, I certainly disagree about the supposed "mistake" of allowing the use of massed infantry formations to destroy mega-points units. As a matter of fact, this is one of the most beautiful design decisions exhibited by SM2.

If you're foolish enough to throw your precious big units in the middle of enemy crossfire unsupported, you deserve to DIE DIE DIE.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:51 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:11 pm
Posts: 208
Location: Newark Ohio
nealhunt as to your first option of swamping a titan with infantry, how is this any different than today, the main tactic for the SMs to deal with a titan seems to follow this down to a tee. as to the second, the insta kill option, is just represented with TK weaponry to one degee or another most of which is tk D3 or something like this doing multible nearly unsavable hits. Neither option bothers me too much as on a battlefield where seeing giant war machines is common, races would natrurally try to come up with weapons designed to try to take them out.

_________________
who are we to bring down the stars
http://lostandfoundohio


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:00 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA
Quote (nealhunt @ 01 2005 July,06:34)
Quote (dafrca @ 01 2005 July,05:32)
Interesting, I had one person on the Offical Forum who would justify all his arguments with a simular point.

"If I have spent the money and time collecting all these and painting them, they should be more powerful..."

I think I know who you are talking about... :D

Now, now, no names.  :laugh:

dafrca

_________________
"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
              - Cities of Death, page 59

Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:54 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA
To be honest, the whole Titan issue for me comes down to a simple question:

If you want the lists to play well on the Tournament Scenario and that is it, then Titans will need to be one way. If you want them to play well in lots of different scenarios, then plan on them not being balanced in one way or the other. So what do you want?

Now, having said that, one last thing: this is one of the problems I think will never be resolved to everyone?s satisfaction. The reason is each person is looking for something different. Some want Titans to be the ?God? of the Battlefield under all circumstances. Some just want to have ?Walking Super Heavies?. Some just want to play smooth with a minimum ?exceptions? to the rules. The three will not match each other.

dafrca

_________________
"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
              - Cities of Death, page 59

Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Quote (dafrca @ 30 2005 June,22:59)
Quote (primarch @ 30 2005 June,15:12)
Why is this so? Is it an inherent flaw in the Epic A basic design?

Why can a titan heavy army not be balanced versus a non titan army in epic A?

Keep in mind this is my opinion and not "fact".

I think it has to do with the lumping of all "Larger then tanks" together into only one category called "War Engine?. Then doing the rules so all War Engines are treated the same.

What EpicA needed was a third category called "Titan" or some such. Thus you could have had rules that apply to Titans only, the way you have rules that are War Engine only today.

If they had done this, then you could have costed the Titans in such a way that they could be in balance with the rest of the units/armies. Why, because it could/would become more of an OGRE style battle. The one (or small number) of very powerful formations against a larger number of weaker formations.

dafrca

Hi!

Why wasnt it done?

Seems like a logical and simple thing to do.

Is it had to implement at this point?

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Quote (Legion 4 @ 30 2005 June,23:23)
I thought the E:A rules did a pretty good job with listing and stating old models and Titan weapons. ?We never had trouble with Titans in our old rule system. ?Strongly based on SM1 ... From what I see of the E:A Titan rules, they look good. ?But I have not played a game so I'm just going on what I read and see. Of course, you could always do what we did and will do, is make the rules suit your tastes. ?Regardless of the official Dogma ... ? :D

Hi!

The AT system still remains the best system for titans in epic. We brought a lot of it back in netepic (SM2 titans wee kind of frail).

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:37 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Quote (Legion 4 @ 30 2005 June,23:45)
I understand that, Tas as I started with SM1/AT1 as you know ! :;): ?I have been reviewing the E:A rules, including Titans and yes compared to the previous iterations, the Titan rules are a bit bland or generic. ?But since we only played with one or two Titans per side (the old SM1 25% rule), we kind of saw them as a "Landship"/weapons platform ... so I guess the rules appear to work for us. ?I even got out my SM/AT1 Titan data cards we use and the current stats should work ... ?We loved the detail of the earlier systems. ?But sometimes it became ungainly. ?So as always do what works for you ! ? :;):

Hi!

I think the major problem with AT titan rules was the interphase with regular non-titan units. It had those problems back then, seems they had the same when they tried applying the modified AT (ATII) to epic 40k.

Would Epic A suffer similar problems if they added such rules?

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Quote (nealhunt @ 01 2005 July,09:55)
Quote (primarch @ 30 2005 June,23:12)
Hi!

Why is this so? Is it an inherent flaw in the Epic A basic design?

Under second edition, titans fit in quite well, while there were bugs, titans had their own rules but played well with other units.

Why can a titan heavy army not be balanced versus a non titan army in epic A?

Primarch

The rules play just fine, and the titans seem to be balanced with respect to toughness and the damage they can inflict. ?The WE rules are smooth and despite the inability to split fire, I rarely see firepower "wasted" due to overkill.


The real problem is that the GT (General Tournament) Scenario is based on taking and holding ground for the most part. ?Titans are unusual in that their mix of toughness/firepower/area control is very different than any traditional units. ?They concentrate a large amount of toughness and a moderate amount of firepower into a very small area compared to similar points in other units.

As I'm sure you can easily recognize, for a scenario based on controlling territory, that can wreak havoc on play balance.

At the low end of the point range, the lack of area control gives them a serious disadvantage in holding territory and opponents just avoid them and capture the objectives to win. ?At the high end, where they are numerous enough to make up for the area control shortcoming, they have a significant advantage due to their toughness and the inability of most units to threaten them significantly.

In the middle range (where most tournaments are played) it seems to be heavily influenced by whether or not the opposing army has the proper gear to damage a titan, i.e. army composition is probably as or more important than tactics. ?If the opposing army took enough units that can seriously threaten a titan, they will probably win. ?If not, the titans have a serious advantage.

Now, in concept, that would be a fine idea. ?I think strategic choices like army comp should be very much part of the game. ?The problem is that a "take all comers" tournament army can only afford to allocate a modest amount of points to anti-titan kinds of units because most of what they face will be traditional forces.

Hence, I think strongly that there will always be a balance problem with TL/Gargant armies in situations with "blind" army selection.

Hi!

Thank you for the explanation. I understand their logic, but whats the hang up with so called "tournament" play? I dont know where they got their marketing info, but I doubt most people play in them, especially epic players.

SM2 you could play pick up games with titan heavy versus titan light with no appreciable problems. Odd they didnt come up with the same for epic A.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Quote (nealhunt @ 01 2005 July,10:58)
I don't think titans were any better "integrated" in SM2/TL than they are in EA. ?They are just different. ?I actually prefer EA because the ways of taking on titans in SM2 were (imho) often squirrelly.

The most reliable way was just to swamp them with lots of infantry. ?As the dice added up, the difference in CAF started to disappear and CC got to pick it's target, iirc. ?Typically, we would throw a bulk formation at the titan to rack up dice with a few elites for high CAF if needed.

I also greatly disliked the various rapid-kill options. ?(Forgive me if some of my specifics are off a bit on technicalities. ?It's been a while since I played SM2/TL rules.)

I recall, for example, 2 formations of Shokk Attak gunz killing a Warlord because 1) it was so big that even with scatter, the squigs would still hit it, and 2) by the time you hit the 5th or 6th "stand" in CC odds were roughly even, with more squig attacks to go.

I also many times went for the Vortex Missile insta-kill with the Thousand Sons or Deathstrikes.

And, of course, various other instant death stuff - WBBTs, Eldar D-Cannons, etc., etc..

Basically, titans were big Death Stars - fine versus the expected combat tactics, but horribly vulnerable to various kinds of goofiness. ?The insta-kill options were generally very cheap to include in an army, so everyone had one or two and titans were extremely rare in our games.

Hi!

The infantry swamping tactic was well known. Most people house ruled that loophole. In netepic, titans have anti-infantry fire taken before close combat so that hole in the rule was fixed.

We dealt with the shokk attack and similar weapons the same way, making shields a deterent against them. Also the erratc nature of the original rules didnt make it all that effective in my experience.

Vortex missiles are vortex missiles- extremely powerful. The problem wasnt the missile, it was the fact that is was "free" with the cost of a warlord. You could mount 4 on one in the original SM2 rules. Netepic resolved this by a pricing structure like the original AT. At 300 points a missile (and adding +3 to the warlords VPs) its high cost and high liability (losing a warlord with a couple on it will yield more than the titan it was meant to kill).

We fixed all the other weapons you mentioned as well. Potent, but the loopholes we fixed.

I always wonder why GW didnt fix it themselves, its not like the solutions were hard or difficult to implement.

Pre-TL era titans were pretty vulnerable by the methods you mentioned (although experienced players could still use them effectively). After titan legions certain rules were in place that minimized several of the methods you mentioned.

The remaining ones we fixed with netepic....  :;):

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Quote (Magnus @ 01 2005 July,12:28)
Quote (nealhunt @ 01 2005 July,16:58)
The most reliable way was just to swamp them with lots of infantry. ?As the dice added up, the difference in CAF started to disappear and CC got to pick it's target, iirc. ?Typically, we would throw a bulk formation at the titan to rack up dice with a few elites for high CAF if needed.


While I sorta agree on the lameness of insta-kill weapons, I certainly disagree about the supposed "mistake" of allowing the use of massed infantry formations to destroy mega-points units. As a matter of fact, this is one of the most beautiful design decisions exhibited by SM2.

If you're foolish enough to throw your precious big units in the middle of enemy crossfire unsupported, you deserve to DIE DIE DIE.

Hi!

I go halfway on both your views.

It was a problem. I have played thar scenario extensively and the thing is thatt is became too easy for an experienced player to sacrifice a broken unit (but that did not fail morale) and swampt a titan and take it out.

Infantry can still do it under netepic, but usually only troops with the "elite" designation can survive the titans anti-personel weapons and inflict damage on the titan. Using non-elite troops is usually a hopefuless endevour.

This rule is very old in netepic and after 8 years of playtesting, pretty sound.

So basically it is still a valid tactic but only with elite expensive troops.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Quote (dafrca @ 01 2005 July,14:54)
To be honest, the whole Titan issue for me comes down to a simple question:

If you want the lists to play well on the Tournament Scenario and that is it, then Titans will need to be one way. If you want them to play well in lots of different scenarios, then plan on them not being balanced in one way or the other. So what do you want?

Now, having said that, one last thing: this is one of the problems I think will never be resolved to everyone?s satisfaction. The reason is each person is looking for something different. Some want Titans to be the ?God? of the Battlefield under all circumstances. Some just want to have ?Walking Super Heavies?. Some just want to play smooth with a minimum ?exceptions? to the rules. The three will not match each other.

dafrca

Hi!

I'm definitely in the "god' camp...

..but all army have their own gods to slay the enemies gods...  :;):

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:24 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote (Grimshawl @ 01 2005 July,18:51)
nealhunt as to your first option of swamping a titan with infantry, how is this any different than today, the main tactic for the SMs to deal with a titan seems to follow this down to a tee. as to the second, the insta kill option, is just represented with TK weaponry to one degee or another most of which is tk D3 or something like this doing multible nearly unsavable hits. Neither option bothers me too much as on a battlefield where seeing giant war machines is common, races would natrurally try to come up with weapons designed to try to take them out.

Grim:  My point was not to pretend EA is better on the titan-integration front.  It was that SM2/TL titan mechanics had gliches that caused problems in play balance and "realism" (for lack of a better term).

The tactics/gadgets I mentioned were a fraction of the cost of the titan and resulted in problems with balance. Some were highly luck-oriented.  Similar things do the job in EA, but they actually cost about the same amount as the titan and much of the randomness has been removed.

There was stuff like titan scatter charts.  I bullseye an APC if I hit, but I might scatter completely off a titan?  How is that realistic or fair?  If anything, you ought to target something when you fire and roll scatter to see if you inflict collateral damage.  Basically, it was a highly artificial system to make titans tougher and it violated the casualty-determination system for the rest of the game.

As far as massed titans being balanced, I think pretty much everyone agreed that the Buy-2-get-1-free Titan Battle Groups were not balanced.

======

Again, none of this is to bash SM2 at all.  It was a decent game and I certainly played the heck out of it.  I'm just pointing out that the "titans were so much better integrated" commentary might be a bit rose-tinted.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:03 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote (primarch @ 01 2005 July,21:47)
Thank you for the explanation. I understand their logic, but whats the hang up with so called "tournament" play? I dont know where they got their marketing info, but I doubt most people play in them, especially epic players.

SM2 you could play pick up games with titan heavy versus titan light with no appreciable problems. Odd they didnt come up with the same for epic A.

The tournament lists are just that - designed specifically for tournaments.  Jervis even put them in the tournament rules, rather than across-the-board "These are the points - deal with it" as they do in 40K.  I think that's a good idea because scenarios can, should, and will widely vary the relative usefulness of units so the points for "tournament scenario" play is only going to give a general guideline anyway.  This keeps the considerations for play balance restricted to a tightly controlled environment.


As far as being able to simply play pick up games with widely varying titan forces, I'm at a loss.  We have vastly differing opinions.

To me, a pickup game is something you can do with a near-stranger on short notice.  You gave a very extensive list of rules mods to both titan and non-titan units in order to make the rules work smoothly.  It's not like you could say "oh, you play SM2?  Grab a tank and we'll race."  Anyone not familiar with the many rules changes you listed would need significant explanation before you could even choose armies and would probably still be at a disadvantage during play.

I don't consider that a pickup game at that point.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 200 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net