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Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model

 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:16 am 
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No I didn't think you were lecturing ... just clarifying your point.  If anyone can lecture me ... you can ... :;):   :laugh:

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:28 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 30 2005 June,20:32)
L4 - the problemw ith Titans in EA is that they are treated as just another superheavy tank (or other war engine) with a efw more guns. ?

I believe this is a major reason why a Titan Heavy army would be unbalanced. Rather then a super large ?Fort? with many guns, it is just a very powerful tank with lots of firepower.

If you allowed it to split fire for example, then one must ask, why not the Baneblade. This is where the argument headed every time. JJ just laid out a final opinion and that was that. No split fire.

This could describe many of the other issues as well.

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:32 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 30 2005 June,20:51)
Yes, it can be a ittle ungainly, but I figure it was worth the time as they were such a major investment, in $, time painting and in points!

Interesting, I had one person on the Offical Forum who would justify all his arguments with a simular point.

"If I have spent the money and time collecting all these and painting them, they should be more powerful..."

Too funny.  :laugh:

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:44 am 
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Similar in that I think they are worth the time invested in playing them correctly, but that is completely skewed logic! :D

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:34 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 01 2005 July,05:32)
Interesting, I had one person on the Offical Forum who would justify all his arguments with a simular point.

"If I have spent the money and time collecting all these and painting them, they should be more powerful..."

I think I know who you are talking about... :D

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:55 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 30 2005 June,23:12)
Hi!

Why is this so? Is it an inherent flaw in the Epic A basic design?

Under second edition, titans fit in quite well, while there were bugs, titans had their own rules but played well with other units.

Why can a titan heavy army not be balanced versus a non titan army in epic A?

Primarch

The rules play just fine, and the titans seem to be balanced with respect to toughness and the damage they can inflict.  The WE rules are smooth and despite the inability to split fire, I rarely see firepower "wasted" due to overkill.


The real problem is that the GT (General Tournament) Scenario is based on taking and holding ground for the most part.  Titans are unusual in that their mix of toughness/firepower/area control is very different than any traditional units.  They concentrate a large amount of toughness and a moderate amount of firepower into a very small area compared to similar points in other units.

As I'm sure you can easily recognize, for a scenario based on controlling territory, that can wreak havoc on play balance.

At the low end of the point range, the lack of area control gives them a serious disadvantage in holding territory and opponents just avoid them and capture the objectives to win.  At the high end, where they are numerous enough to make up for the area control shortcoming, they have a significant advantage due to their toughness and the inability of most units to threaten them significantly.

In the middle range (where most tournaments are played) it seems to be heavily influenced by whether or not the opposing army has the proper gear to damage a titan, i.e. army composition is probably as or more important than tactics.  If the opposing army took enough units that can seriously threaten a titan, they will probably win.  If not, the titans have a serious advantage.

Now, in concept, that would be a fine idea.  I think strategic choices like army comp should be very much part of the game.  The problem is that a "take all comers" tournament army can only afford to allocate a modest amount of points to anti-titan kinds of units because most of what they face will be traditional forces.

Hence, I think strongly that there will always be a balance problem with TL/Gargant armies in situations with "blind" army selection.

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:22 pm 
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Yes, if you know you're going to use Titans in a game (we always didn't, and used the SM1 rule of only 25% could be used on Titans and Off-board support, if we did ...), you have to be savvy enough to use your Titan(s) to smash his. ?Bring on Deathstrikes and weapons like that, + off-board support to stop his Titan ... IMO.  Now with Aircraft, based on E:A rules, we would go to 33% (ie.1/3) of your TBFL on Titans, Off-Board(in E:A this is equal to Spaceraft) + aircraft ...




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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:26 pm 
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I think one of the problems is that some of the other armies really dont have much of a problem dealling with the ADTLs list, like IG steel legion, while others like Space Marines have real dificult time with the list. to point to two different ends of the spectrum. Now this is just my opinion here, but honestly if you look at the old 2nd edition system where titans were well integrated into the system and then look at todays Epic A I think you might see the main difference causing these problems dealling with  titans today is army composition.
As an example I ask you to consider what type of things you use to defeat or destroy titans playing a second edition game of epic. especially look at it from a Imperial perspective, this is what I see when I think about what I personally use, I use titans vs titans or superheavy tanks or large groups of tanks or Knights. those are the most common things I use aguanst titans. now in the current lists you are very limited in points trying to match titans vs titans, and since the Imperial lists are split up now so you cant use IG with SMs like you used to then you find SMs with the short end of the stick when facing titans. The titans of today arent all that different then the 2nd edition titans, as a matter of fact without the location dice involved you actually land more hits on them today then you did back then. Now as I said this is just my opinion but the current Epic has sliced the lists down until they have sliced out alot of the options you used to have to deal with titans, especially for the Space Marines.

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:58 pm 
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I don't think titans were any better "integrated" in SM2/TL than they are in EA.  They are just different.  I actually prefer EA because the ways of taking on titans in SM2 were (imho) often squirrelly.

The most reliable way was just to swamp them with lots of infantry.  As the dice added up, the difference in CAF started to disappear and CC got to pick it's target, iirc.  Typically, we would throw a bulk formation at the titan to rack up dice with a few elites for high CAF if needed.

I also greatly disliked the various rapid-kill options.  (Forgive me if some of my specifics are off a bit on technicalities.  It's been a while since I played SM2/TL rules.)

I recall, for example, 2 formations of Shokk Attak gunz killing a Warlord because 1) it was so big that even with scatter, the squigs would still hit it, and 2) by the time you hit the 5th or 6th "stand" in CC odds were roughly even, with more squig attacks to go.

I also many times went for the Vortex Missile insta-kill with the Thousand Sons or Deathstrikes.

And, of course, various other instant death stuff - WBBTs, Eldar D-Cannons, etc., etc..

Basically, titans were big Death Stars - fine versus the expected combat tactics, but horribly vulnerable to various kinds of goofiness.  The insta-kill options were generally very cheap to include in an army, so everyone had one or two and titans were extremely rare in our games.

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:28 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 01 2005 July,16:58)
The most reliable way was just to swamp them with lots of infantry.  As the dice added up, the difference in CAF started to disappear and CC got to pick it's target, iirc.  Typically, we would throw a bulk formation at the titan to rack up dice with a few elites for high CAF if needed.


While I sorta agree on the lameness of insta-kill weapons, I certainly disagree about the supposed "mistake" of allowing the use of massed infantry formations to destroy mega-points units. As a matter of fact, this is one of the most beautiful design decisions exhibited by SM2.

If you're foolish enough to throw your precious big units in the middle of enemy crossfire unsupported, you deserve to DIE DIE DIE.


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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:51 pm 
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nealhunt as to your first option of swamping a titan with infantry, how is this any different than today, the main tactic for the SMs to deal with a titan seems to follow this down to a tee. as to the second, the insta kill option, is just represented with TK weaponry to one degee or another most of which is tk D3 or something like this doing multible nearly unsavable hits. Neither option bothers me too much as on a battlefield where seeing giant war machines is common, races would natrurally try to come up with weapons designed to try to take them out.

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:00 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 01 2005 July,06:34)
Quote (dafrca @ 01 2005 July,05:32)
Interesting, I had one person on the Offical Forum who would justify all his arguments with a simular point.

"If I have spent the money and time collecting all these and painting them, they should be more powerful..."

I think I know who you are talking about... :D

Now, now, no names.  :laugh:

dafrca

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:54 pm 
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To be honest, the whole Titan issue for me comes down to a simple question:

If you want the lists to play well on the Tournament Scenario and that is it, then Titans will need to be one way. If you want them to play well in lots of different scenarios, then plan on them not being balanced in one way or the other. So what do you want?

Now, having said that, one last thing: this is one of the problems I think will never be resolved to everyone?s satisfaction. The reason is each person is looking for something different. Some want Titans to be the ?God? of the Battlefield under all circumstances. Some just want to have ?Walking Super Heavies?. Some just want to play smooth with a minimum ?exceptions? to the rules. The three will not match each other.

dafrca

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:33 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 30 2005 June,22:59)
Quote (primarch @ 30 2005 June,15:12)
Why is this so? Is it an inherent flaw in the Epic A basic design?

Why can a titan heavy army not be balanced versus a non titan army in epic A?

Keep in mind this is my opinion and not "fact".

I think it has to do with the lumping of all "Larger then tanks" together into only one category called "War Engine?. Then doing the rules so all War Engines are treated the same.

What EpicA needed was a third category called "Titan" or some such. Thus you could have had rules that apply to Titans only, the way you have rules that are War Engine only today.

If they had done this, then you could have costed the Titans in such a way that they could be in balance with the rest of the units/armies. Why, because it could/would become more of an OGRE style battle. The one (or small number) of very powerful formations against a larger number of weaker formations.

dafrca

Hi!

Why wasnt it done?

Seems like a logical and simple thing to do.

Is it had to implement at this point?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Good Idea for Tyranid Node Model
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:34 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 30 2005 June,23:23)
I thought the E:A rules did a pretty good job with listing and stating old models and Titan weapons. ?We never had trouble with Titans in our old rule system. ?Strongly based on SM1 ... From what I see of the E:A Titan rules, they look good. ?But I have not played a game so I'm just going on what I read and see. Of course, you could always do what we did and will do, is make the rules suit your tastes. ?Regardless of the official Dogma ... ? :D

Hi!

The AT system still remains the best system for titans in epic. We brought a lot of it back in netepic (SM2 titans wee kind of frail).

Primarch

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