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Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:20 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 28 2005 June,21:08)
Of course we could talk about WHY epic isnt a core game anymore.....

...but I gather you'll all heard the reasons more than enough time from me.... ?:;):

Actually, I haven't heard why epic is no longer a core game. Please enlighten me.

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primarch
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:31 pm 
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Hi!

hehe, I just LOVE to talk about that.... :;):

The short answer is Epic 40k, the third edition of epic.

Without going into the merits of the game (which would be a topic of much debate in it of itself... :;): ), from a pure sales perspective, to put it mildly, it flopped.

Six months from that games release, GW pretty much dropped support leaving players of such armies like chaos and tyranids without a reliable source of minis.

Within two years of its release, for the first time in its history epic became out of print.

Epic went from a core game to no game. It has NEVER recovered. Attempts have been made, but GW has never put into epic the backing second edition had or even third edition for that matter.

Now, excluding perceptions regarding the game itself, I would say its a fair assessment to say that it was "mostly" GW's fault the game tanked. They didnt read the market appropriately on how players would react to the changes (which included eliminating squats...) nor did they market and distribute the game effectively beyond the initial box set.

This is the "short" version. But I think I got what most people would agree on.

Of course if you wanted to get into game related reasons for its failure.... then it gets more "interesting"..... :;):

Primarch

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:40 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 28 2005 June,21:31)
This is the "short" version. But I think I got what most people would agree on.

Of course if you wanted to get into game related reasons for its failure.... then it gets more "interesting"..... :;):

I know why I don't like Epic40k, but what are the "game related" reasons for its failure?

Primarch, if you want to PM me with the answer instead of posting here in the forum, feel free.

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primarch
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:55 pm 
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Hi!

Quite alright, the reasons are not secret... :;):

In the simplest form, the game seemed not to please a lot of the old epic players becuase they changed "too much". That of course is subjective, some DID like the changes. For those who didnt the most often quoted things are:

1. Flavorless - they found that the elimination of all the loveable (and extremely wacky) special rules made units bland and uninspiring. Orks didnt have those wierd rules where equipment performed spectacularly or blew up in your face. Chaos had no individual unique powers. Insipid.

2. Too streamlined - while abstraction may be a good thing most of the time, it was felt by quite a few that abstracting armor, saving throws, weapon types went to far. One could debate endlessly what this scale should represent, but those who didnt like it, like me, didnt like that level of abstraction

3. Blast markers - cool concept, lousy implementation. Many specially didnt like that you could suppress weapons on titans thus rendering them useless this way. Too easy to incapacitate formations via blast markers. Realistic? Maybe. But not fun in the view of some.

Those of what I remember of the top of my head. Back in the days of the great version flame wars I could fill pages with minute nit-picky details of why I thought it stunk. No point in beating that dead horse anymore though.

In the end why it "failed" had more to do with player perception than with any tangible reality of the game itself. It failed becuase more people thought it wasnt an improvement over the previous system than those who thought it was. Add GW's atrocious marketing to it and you get an enormous flop.

Primarch

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:00 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 28 2005 June,21:55)
Hi!

Quite alright, the reasons are not secret... :;):

In the simplest form, the game seemed not to please a lot of the old epic players becuase they changed "too much". That of course is subjective, some DID like the changes. For those who didnt the most often quoted things are:

1. Flavorless - they found that the elimination of all the loveable (and extremely wacky) special rules made units bland and uninspiring. Orks didnt have those wierd rules where equipment performed spectacularly or blew up in your face. Chaos had no individual unique powers. Insipid.

2. Too streamlined - while abstraction may be a good thing most of the time, it was felt by quite a few that abstracting armor, saving throws, weapon types went to far. One could debate endlessly what this scale should represent, but those who didnt like it, like me, didnt like that level of abstraction

3. Blast markers - cool concept, lousy implementation. Many specially didnt like that you could suppress weapons on titans thus rendering them useless this way. Too easy to incapacitate formations via blast markers. Realistic? Maybe. But not fun in the view of some.

Those of what I remember of the top of my head. Back in the days of the great version flame wars I could fill pages with minute nit-picky details of why I thought it stunk. No point in beating that dead horse anymore though.

In the end why it "failed" had more to do with player perception than with any tangible reality of the game itself. It failed becuase more people thought it wasnt an improvement over the previous system than those who thought it was. Add GW's atrocious marketing to it and you get an enormous flop.

Primarch

Those are pretty much the reasons I don't like it! ? :p ?There are a few things I do like about it. I always thought the minis were really nice. Nice, but overpriced. You're right though, no point in beating a dead horse! ?}:) Thanks, P!




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primarch
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:04 pm 
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Hi!

I agree the minis of the era of very good, better than the old ones. I have an unusual amount of them since GW started dumping them at 2-3 dollars a blisters after the game flopped.

I think most who didnt like the rules quoted the same reasons. Whether they be bonafide reasons or just a bad perception is immaterial. Its a game, you either like and play it or you dont.

The Dont's won. The game died.

Pretty simple.

Primarch

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Tas
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:24 am 
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I always thought the minis were really nice. Nice, but overpriced.


But thats no different to now DS! ???

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primarch
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:25 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 28 2005 June,20:24)
I always thought the minis were really nice. Nice, but overpriced.


But thats no different to now DS! ???

Hi!

It seems that no matter what time frame we speak of this statement is always true....

...really nice minis, but overpriced.  :;):

Primarch

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Markconz
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:25 am 
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Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 28 2005 June,17:04)
Grim, for 40k, keep in mind the target audience. GW doesn't want the veteran players, because they have already bought a ton of minis. GW wants the newbie teenagers who are starting from scratch in building armies.

Hmm, am I the only veteran gamer who is still buying heaps of figures? Admittedly many are old models because they remind me of my youth or something... :oo  but I often buy those thru archives etc, and sometimes I just grab a completely new army. For example the new 40k techmarines and servitors inspired me to do an Iron Hands army this year - all new figures. A couple of years ago I bought up on some new tyranids...  

Around here what I see with veteran gamers (>30) in the 40k and fantasy scene, is that as soon as one army is finished the next is started. There is also often a competitive approach where everyone tries to make their new army more spectacular and unique than the last - in terms of painting, conversions etc. I know kids often have large disposable incomes form parents, but what about big kids with their own disposable incomes...  :;):

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dafrca
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:22 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 28 2005 June,17:24)
I always thought the minis were really nice. Nice, but overpriced.


But thats no different to now DS! ???

Yet people keep buying...  :L

Hard to call them overpriced as long as people pay the price.

dafrca

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dafrca
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:25 am 
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Quote (Markconz @ 28 2005 June,20:25)
Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 28 2005 June,17:04)
Grim, for 40k, keep in mind the target audience. GW doesn't want the veteran players, because they have already bought a ton of minis. GW wants the newbie teenagers who are starting from scratch in building armies.

Hmm, am I the only veteran gamer who is still buying heaps of figures?

Based on sales data, Yes.  :oo

GW has done internal documents stating they have looked into the mater and the people most likly to buy their product on a stedy basis is 11-15 year olds. From there the $ spent on average drops.

My age did not even make it on the chart I saw.  :L

dafrca

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:40 am 
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Quote (dafrca @ 29 2005 June,06:25)
My age did not even make it on the chart I saw. ?:L

dafrca

:o  :o  :o

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Tas
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:55 am 
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We are the tiny minority:

"We few, we happy few, we Band of Brothers..." :D

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:08 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 29 2005 June,09:55)
"We few, we happy few, we Band of Brothers..." :D

"We few, we happy few, we Band of Old :p ..."  


Sorry Tas - and Hank and Will!  :;):

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dysartes
 Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:31 pm 
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Attempting (vainly) to keep the topic something like on-topic, here's a WIP version of v2 of the AMTL list: Link

Thoughts?

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