This is where the varient lists have come in. Trukks look at Speed Freaks, Weirdy Boyz look at Ferals.

I believe that we will win 40k players over by the great game systeme that we have not by the units that they are used to seeing.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Would work for me. We just had to take some point from past and keep every list as they were then backgroundwise, forget every background that has made after that. But then we had to do it to all list (chaos for example), not just keep orks as they are.

Nowdays you get FF4+ Raptors because 40K has option of 2 melta for raptors, instead what would be IMO epic way of giving them assault marines stats. But in the same time orks are happily forgotten.

If something, I want consistence between races. If orks follow old background and chaos follows new one it just is stupid. Either both, or neither.

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Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris

So what do zaps and super guns translate into 40k as?

What about the big DC3 wagon beasts (these I take it are battlewagons, at least it seems so in the forgeworld book)? Boarboyz? Madboyz?

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General Plumer, 191x

Shokk attack gun, killkannons, boomguns etc etc.

Battlefortresses, they have stats in Apo. Boarboyz does not exist in normal ork codex. How does Madboy and Weirdboy differs?

What was your point? To prove that in small scale there are not big scale things, or that you dont bring artillery in mano o mano fight? There are no Titans in Space Marine codex either.

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Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris

Well, we would need _consistence_* what we dont have now. Lord I has nerfed Plague Marines "because 40K did that" (Epic stats clearly states that Plague Marines are indeed fearles.) and has suggested generic demons "because 40K did that".

I am fine with generic deamons and wussy plague marines if we get same treatment to everybody else too. What I am not fine is the way things are now, preheresy there and 13th (14th?)crusade here.

*= Not native english speaker, but I mean that things are same across the board, everybody follows same rules and same background.

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Eradication of Earth's
Population loves Polaris

I do agree with this. It's pretty odd how some lists go the 40k way and some don't. Personally, I'd prefer if none did, the ork list is fine (apart from maybe gunwagons being a tad crap). Especially when some suggested changes are generic daemons, which caused a terrible ruckus in the 40k crowd and a lot of them have stopped using them completely (not that I fault them, since they're pretty weak for their points).

However, I do think the raptors are a different issue. Why? Because jump pack marines for chaos are a new invention. In 40k they're like assault marines, but shootier. So making them work like that in Epic is a good thing, I think. Like obliterators shouldn't have AA. If you want to port stuff over from 40k, don't pull stats out of your ass, I say.

But I'd like to address some points concerning the ork units.

That shokk attack gun should be a big gun. Just like pulsa rokkits, splatta kannons, smasha guns and other random 2nd edition contraptions.

Mega-armoured nobz do exist in Epic. They're the plastic nob minis. Remember those 2nd edition meganobz? Here's the best pic I could find: http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j223/ ... dboys1.jpg
Looks like current Epic nobz to me. It's not Epic's fault GW changed their look from bigger power armour to walking garbage cans.

Regular nobz shouldn't exist in Epic, since veteran marines don't, either. If you want and have suitable minis, you could put in a few for looks, just like a lot of marine armies have those powerfist sergeants in every other stand.

Tankbustas and lootas can just be big gunz. Assume they move so slowly due to their heavy equipment.

And I have to disagree with the trukk being iconic. It was only invented with Gorkamorka, that's not too old. In any case, I do have a problem with nonexisting minis being present in the main army list, like trukks or burna boyz. They're fine for special lists like the Kult of Speed, but I'd keep them out of the basic lists of Eldar, IG, Marines and Orks, to keep the game more newbie-friendly and accessible. Chaos and Tyranids are already for more dedicated hobbyists for obvious support issues, so they can have their defilers and mini-hierodules and whatnot.

Thats why a variant list is needed for all the little boyz who had no treatment in the basic Ork list.

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Abstraction is the heart and soul of Epic-A, and players should look at the stats with a grain of salt rather then with a critical eye. Read JJs designer notes they describe well the exact intention to maintain abstraction over detail.

The very positive effect of abstraction is that one isn't tied to having to put every single twist or 'special' weapon into the game, instead they are as well represented by a generic weapon that represents all.

Nothing wrong with this and it is the very strength of Epic-A and the deep seeded weakness in WH40K.

Start to put in every "40K" snippet of detail into Epic-A would mean that we would have to start creating the 'Characters', does anyone think we need stats for Yarrick? Azreal? Abaddon? I don't.

Every Codex that comes out and the very rules of the 40K game start to go out the window, along with sanity. Soon opponents need an encyclopedic memory to even be able to play the game at its most basic level. Its the minis folks that sell the game in 40K, not the system. I see it all the time, young kids pick up the White Dwarf, see the cool well painted minis, see it on their shelf over their bed and BAM, they are hooked in.

They pour their money into the game, assemble the minis, attempt to paint them (sometimes), and actually try to play the game. With the investment they have poured out for the initial army they are now caught in the vicious cycle. Fight battles, lose, then buy some more stonking minis because of this special weapon/rule or that special weapon/rule so they can start winning. Win a few battles, opponents adjust, and they are back at square one buying some more minis.

I love the simplicity of the Epic-A system, let the 40K players have all the crap jammed into 40K, and keep it out of Epic-A.

Nobody is forcing the 40K players to play Epic-A, if they want all the baloney doled out in 40K then my advice is they should stick to 40K.

Epic-A is about big fun battles with minimal BS detail, and that is the Heart and Soul of the game.

Jaldon
Tyranid Champion

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

If abstraction is such a good thing then why aren't we all playing Epic 40K right now?

I think there's a reason why NetEpic still enjoys a faithful following. A bit more flavor and detail is never a bad thing.

Or maybe I should just piss off and play 40K then?

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

Or maybe I should just piss off and play 40K then?

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Or maybe NetEpic      Come over to the Dark Side Malakai...

Nice EA summation Jaldon, I understand abstract in game play but for me I just don't enjoy it as much as a game with character. Perhaps it is a good thing there are so many stages of Epic development in order to please most tastes.

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

No worries.  I think there are 2 main reasons that people are antagonistic towards 40K:

1)  The tactics are heavily dependent on the game rules.  Obviously, there is a certain unavoidable level of that.  However, in 40k there seems to be a lot more "playing the rules" than use of real-world military concepts.  That doesn't mean it's a bad game, but I think this crowd generally tends towards wanting something more successful as a simulation.

2)  The target audience for 40K is younger than most of the people here, and the game experience often reflects that lack of maturity.  Even with the older guys that I used to play with on occasion, it was a lot of "line up a huge amount of miniatures and bash into each other" in the 40K games.  You can only be on the receiving end of a 14 year old Khornate power-gamer who gloats or pouts (depending on the game results) so many times before it turns you off to the experience the game offers.

Overall, I don't think it's a bad system.  It's just not my favorite and I'll choose other things first if the opportunity is there.

Still I think the Epic:A system seems really sleek and sexy and is the way forward. I just don't understand why some people are so adverse to adding more unit types to the list.

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Neal

Yeah I went on a bit of a rant last night. Sorry about that. In my defense it was 5 A.M where I live and I hadn't managed any sleep (damn Holidays).

I realize that it was probably arrogant (and a little ignorant) of me to lecture people who have been working on a project as long as you guys have when I myself am pretty new to it.

In the future I'll save my bitching and whining until I'm a little more seasoned!  

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ