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Tigershark AX-0-1
Honda	Post subject: Tigershark AX-0-1 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:32 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	I would like to point out that I am not debating that five (or two or whatever number it takes) TS couldn't take out a Stompa mob. I'm also not going to debate that after you break a blitz unit, that your other shots kill big chunks. Assuming that all of your air units activated, that was Turn One and the Ork Player is now, at a minimum, in mid-field. What I will debate is that in the list given in the batrep, with 12 flak wagons on the table, blitz brigades that were 12+ in size, an infantry mob that was 30 units strong doubling each turn, a bike unit that was 18 strong, and artillery unit that was 16 or so strong. What are you going to do to him in Turn Two to keep him out of your HALF of the board? If I was the Ork player and I saw you wasting your shots at a Stompa mob while 80% of my army enters your half of the board, then it would be a struggle to not sacrifice my sportsmanship score and laugh out loud. So, when we are considering what "balanced" is, keep in mind that the current TS does not solve all the tactical problems that one is faced with in one shot, which would be my definition of an overpowered unit. Again, JMO... _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Steele	Post subject: Tigershark AX-0-1 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:44 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	@Honda, as I haven?t yet read this particular report ( i do it tommorrow), I agree with you . In the example given , you?ll need Artillery, and a lot of it, to stop them. And no Airforce like the TS will change the approach you pointed out. But , sorry for the question, why you are asking this? I can feel your thoughts: thousands of orks in the range of your very home lines and you have only got a couple of vehicles and men to stop them..... I would say movement is the only viable route to escape , and keep firing. As I don?t faced Orks with Tau yet , this is only a presumption. But isn?t it somewhat OT? Maybe I don?t get it , help me on this. Cheers! Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Tactica	Post subject: Tigershark AX-0-1 Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:53 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (Honda @ 24 Jan. 2006 (16:32)) What I will debate is that in the list given in the batrep, with 12 flak wagons on the table, blitz brigades that were 12+ in size, an infantry mob that was 30 units strong doubling each turn, a bike unit that was 18 strong, and artillery unit that was 16 or so strong. What are you going to do to him in Turn Two to keep him out of your HALF of the board? If I was the Ork player and I saw you wasting your shots at a Stompa mob while 80% of my army enters your half of the board, then it would be a struggle to not sacrifice my sportsmanship score and laugh out loud. So, when we are considering what "balanced" is, keep in mind that the current TS does not solve all the tactical problems that one is faced with in one shot, which would be my definition of an overpowered unit. Again, JMO... This was my point a long time ago in the original TS thread. One abuse against one army and one player does not yield a broken formation. It simply identifies a scenerio in which the unit can be abused. Equal adversaries and a variety of armies are much more telling. I mentioned a long time ago that the orks would make any Tau player cringe for taking 5 TS AX-1-0 as it just wouldn't add up for him. Too many points spent in non-objective holding formations, and the orks will roll over the reminents. Looking forward to the rest of your batrep btw...   _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Tigershark AX-0-1 Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:58 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (Steele @ 24 Jan. 2006 (16:44)) @Honda, as I haven?t yet read this particular report ( i do it tommorrow), I agree with you . In the example given , you?ll need Artillery, and a lot of it, to stop them. And no Airforce like the TS will change the approach you pointed out. But , sorry for the question, why you are asking this? I can feel your thoughts: thousands of orks in the range of your very home lines and you have only got a couple of vehicles and men to stop them..... I would say movement is the only viable route to escape , and keep firing. As I don?t faced Orks with Tau yet , this is only a presumption. But isn?t it somewhat OT? Maybe I don?t get it , help me on this. Cheers! Steele Steele, Not to speak for Honda, but I think his point is essentially... before we go hacking up a rules for the TS AX-1-0 unit, based upon feedback where one player abused another less skilled player with a particular list suseptable to the TS AX-1-0 - there are many other tourny viable lists where 5 TS would have a detrimental effect to the Tau and hardly effect the enemy list. Case and point - Ork horde. Therefore, if rules changes are in order - so be it, however, lets consider the full gambit of tourny viable lists - not just the ones 5 TS match up good against. A valid concern IMHO. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Honda

Post subject: Tigershark AX-0-1 Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:28 am

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

@Steele But , sorry for the question, why you are asking this? I can feel your thoughts: thousands of orks in the range of your very home lines and you have only got a couple of vehicles and men to stop them..... I would say movement is the only viable route to escape , and keep firing. As I don?t faced Orks with Tau yet , this is only a presumption. But isn?t it somewhat OT? Maybe I don?t get it , help me on this. My apologies, I think I got a little irritated with some of the ?responses to the tactical problem presented. My question is what they call a "rhetorical" question, in that there isn't supposed to be an answer, but it is expected to provoke thought. So, in the given situation, you cannot just stand and shoot, maneuver must play a part in your plan. However, in a 2700 point list, if one took five Tigersharks against the Ork list posted, then 875 points of your list are optimized to shoot at targets that by others admissions, will be gone by the start of Turn 2. So, then the Ork player only has to focus the remaining 80% of their force, optimized for speed, durability, and HtH capabilities, against the sub-optimized remainder of the Tau 60%, which may or may not have a very effective counter to a horde rush, and very likely be wiped off the board. All of which points to the fact that the Tigershark is not the one single weapon system that dominates all opponents as it has sometimes been portrayed. There are situations where it can deliver a punishing amount of damage against some opponents. However, in the above Ork situation, which is not all that uncommon or unusual, after the first turn, all the points invested in Tigersharks start to work against you as you cannot put enough shots into the remaining formations (assuming that flak leaves you completely unscathed) to prevent the remaining formations from being over run. So before we embark on a crusade to "geld" the Tigershark, let us keep in mind that mass usage (which was the original issue that led to this thread) is only situationally effective. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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HecklerMD

Post subject: Tigershark AX-0-1 Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:31 am

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201

Quote (nealhunt @ 24 Jan. 2006 (06:38)) Heckler:  Can you elaborate on why you did what you did in those games?  I don't understand what you did or your assertions. Game 1:  Why fire at a shielded gargant?  You're trading an auto-kill for every hit for simply stripping a shield. I had a Broadside Contingent garrisoned on OW on the left side of the board, ready to, erm, pounce on the Gargant when it moved and strip its shields.  My opponent, cunning Grot that he is, saw through my plan and delayed moving his Gargant untill the threat had been eliminated.  FIrst, he used 5 FBs on my Broadsides, which I countered with a CAP Squad of Barracudas, so no kills on the Broadsides, but 1 BM.  Then, he engagaed with a Kult of Speed from almost 60 CM away, so I had to trigger my OW or get swamped.  the OW fire pretty much wiped out his KOS but now the trap was sprung early.  To remove the threat permanantly, he then Air Assaulted the Broadsides with a Stormboys Mob in a Landa, killing all but 1 and breaking them.  He used 850 points of units to take out my 300Pt shield strippers, really no way I could have predicted it or prevented it (I didnt have an Orca... then ) All the units that attacked the Broadsides either died that turn, or took heavy casualties and spent the rest of the game broken.  They were swiftly avenged. I had no other reliable AT shooting formations on that side of the table, and none would arrive till turn 3 (The AMHC) So I had to attack a shielded Gargant with TSs.  I could have targeted the Stompa Mob with them, also on the left side, or perhaps the Battle Fortress or the Blitz Brigade /w GunFortress on the  right side, but I feel justified in not doing so:  The Stompa Mob really didnt contribute much, not nearly as much as the Gargant, and the units on the right side were delt with decisivley by the AMHC (in passing) and the Crisis Cadre there, by the end of turn 2. Whatever the reason, aside from 1 shield being stripped by another formation, 2 TS single-handedly took a Gargant with max shields down to half DC.  That's a 350 point formation that stripped 5 shields and took the DC to half on a 650 point unit.  I would consider that more or less getting their points back with average rolls and (to current appearances - apologies if you have a good reason) less than optimal use. Heh, if I used them in an optimal fashion, it was purely by accident.  But I think I used them in a considered fashion. Now my Barracudas.  THOSE I screwed up with... Actually, with the effects fo the 3 Crits in turn 3, they got the Gargant down to 1 point of damage.  But it was the Orks BTS, and it stayed alive, so getting my points back there depends on your point of view. If we'd gone to turn 4, if only... Game 2:  I don't understand your assessment here.  With well below average rolls, the TS killed 3 Landraiders.  Those kill numbers were below average even after the 4.3.3 to-hit reduction.  That's a 175 point unit that killed 300 points.  Discounting for the fact that Landraiders are too expensive, the TS still killed half again its points value with below average rolls. Why would you not call that a good performance?

I guess, lack of "Wow" factor.  Game 2 turn 1 they produced nothing but a BM when they could have been the most decisive.  Turns 2 and 3 they dribbled out some kills but didnt really effect the outcome  Yeah, they killed 300pts worth, but not in a way to effect the game.  They didnt really live up to the "Dire Warnings" of overwhelming force.

Also, is the Marauder comparison a mistake - 300 points v 175, different roles, etc?

I was referring to both games in general, so 350 Vs 300 and 175 Vs 300.