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Reviewing Spirit Stones

 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:26 am 
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This was quite a lot of discussion on the matter and I find most of the solutions jump steps in coming to their conclusions or rely on others experience in forming their opinion. As I don't find this helpful, I need to have everyone go back to the basics, play the game with some guidelines in play and pay attention to what is going on with all the forces. This is the best way to do just that.

Here's my proposal, purely for information gathering purposes. Only remove 1 extra Blast marker per 1,000 points or fraction there of (close to my original estimate of the nudge Eldar needed at the end). See how much that affects your game. Keep track of where you use it, and where don't use it (and how often). If this finds what we need to do, then we can see how to fashion rules to give us this effect. Guess work does not have to be a part of this. And we shouldn't punish any army compostion at this time so nothing else should be restricted. The only other guidelines are these extra Blast marker can not be taken off the same formation and they do not apply to Broken formations (mostly because it makes it tricky to explain) or Flyers (they use a different system anyway).

Now this ability should degrade as the army degrades, but for this part of the research, we are going to leave that out to focus on where Blast marker management gets used and how much it is really needed.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:48 am 
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Ok MC23, but can you please word your proposition as simply and precisely as you can as an actual rule? Here is an initial stab at it:

"In the end phase after all rallies are complete, an eldar player may remove 1 BM per 1000 points (or part thereof) of initial points value. Each formation may only remove one blastmarker, and may not do so if broken or aircraft."

Note I have just returned home from an engagement party having drunk a lot of beer - I expect the wording of my proposition to be substantially improved when I wake up tomorrow... :p :D

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:04 pm 
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Each formation may only remove one blastmarker, and may not do so if broken or aircraft

Well, if I'm not wrong, in the current rules, you dont remove a blast master on an unbroken formation that failed the rally test.

was this modification intentional or due to the effects of the this delicious liquid?:p

For a matter of simplicity ( avoiding to keep track of who succeeded the rally test ), I propose this wording

"Eldar formations are allowed to remove one extra Blast marker whenever they rally in the End Phase. A maximum of 1BM per 1000 points (or part thereof) of initial points value may be removed this way."

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:48 pm 
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Thanks thurse :;): ?Sounds good to me:

"Eldar formations are allowed to remove one extra Blast marker whenever they rally in the End Phase. A maximum of 1BM per 1000 points (or part thereof) of initial points value may be removed this way."

We'll try this in our next games...





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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:30 am 
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Sounds good I'll get it rolling in my grouip this weekend, and give it a whirl in the battles the.

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:10 am 
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I'll give it a shot, but since I regularly run 3-5 formations of WE's and Fireprisms/ Night Spinners even in 3000 points, I honestly think this makes Eldar tanks way to big of a target. ?Like I said I'll try it, but I think only getting 3 BMs in 3k is taking the concept of reducing Spirit Stones a bit too far.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:39 am 
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Well, whats worse that or 300 less points? I.e. how much would you pay for spirit stones?

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:55 am 
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Just one question,

If the original 'problem' is that every unit gets the bonus, then how many times was it being used per turn originally?

Was it being used on more than 3 units a turn in a 2700 point game regularly?

If not - isn't this proposition just more of the same?

i.e. - if I get 3 bonus blast marker removals per turn in a 2700 point game, and I need to rally 4 units on the end of turn 1, but only 3 have more than 1 BM on them - then I'm going to rally all 4 and use the extra 1 BM removal on the 3 with more than 1 BM on turn 1.

So is this really chaning much of anything?

I thought the goal was 3 layers deep...

1) to identify which formations actually warranted the rule

2) make sure only those formations had a CHANCE to benefit from any new rule

3) and limit the access of the rule to the army overall from what it is today.

Am I incorrect on the goal for the review of Spirit Stones, if I'm not - how does the new rule address the issues?

If I am incorrect on the goals, what are the goals of reviewing Spirit stones?

It sounds like the current proposition simply eliminates how many times the additional BM removal is used per turn but still gives the bonus to the entire army.

Sorry - not trying to be contraversial... I'm just confused here on the goals of the review of Spirit Stones now.

Cheers,

Rob

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:09 am 
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Tactica - not wanting to speak for him, but I think MC23 just wants to step back in the process and evaluate things at a more basic level.

Nevertheless I do understand where you are coming from - I also thought we were at the stage where we were a bit more advanced in the process having identified the 3 goals you had talked about, ie:

1) to identify which formations actually warranted the rule
2) make sure only those formations had a CHANCE to benefit from any new rule
3) and limit the access of the rule to the army overall from what it is today.

Most other active contributors also appeared to be in agreement.

Nevertheless I am going to play a few games with MC23's suggestion and see what happens, I've got a couple of games organised for next Sunday.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:59 am 
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Markconz,

Well thank you for responding. At least I'm not losing my mind.

Regards to MC23's request, I should note that i'm happy to oblige with the request as well.

Now... if my new army (ebay purchase) would just show up... everything's done except some tuning here and there. Should be able to hit the ground running...

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:15 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 05 Mar. 2006 (18:55))
Just one question,

If the original 'problem' is that every unit gets the bonus, then how many times was it being used per turn originally?

My intentions are to find out at this stage is to find out

1.How much of a nudge is actually needed.
2.Pay attention to where it is being used.

from there rules can be crafted to put this into effect for further playtesting on balance issues.

Only I was trying it with this type of effect when everybody was coming out with all sorts of different solutions. Jervis chose across the board change at the end due to time constraints. With what we had time for we didn't find it a broken rule, but the issue of total balance wasn't fully explored. What I saw then sith Spirit Stones was Eldar still died at the same rate as always, they just weren't all broken or neutered in turn 4.

Anyway the original problem was that Eldar needed a small nudge in the rally phase. What we got was a push from Spirit Stones.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:15 pm 
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MC23, what I hear you saying is that in development, Eldar were ending with too many blast markers on all formations.

I can appreciate that, Tau have the same problem currently. However, we are using lessons learned from Eldar Spirit Stones and avoiding a blanket solution.

Instead, we choose to pursue two different paths currently which are more focused on the formation level.

1) Determine which formations should have Init 1 and which shouldn't for appropriate in game activation probability of course but thus promoting BM shedding by higher probability of successful activation in game and higher probability of regroup in end phase to actually shed the BM's.

2) Where justified, utilize Leader appropriately - as is the case with our Network Drone upgrade for a formation. In this case, its an option - not a guaranteed ability for the formation. So first you have to have purchase it for the formation at an additional cost. Second, only certain formations are allowed the ability. Third, the purchase takes of one of three upgrade slots available to the formation in question.

Now we are still in development so who's to say if these abilities are enough, but so far test results are positive.

Now back to Eldar - although I don't think the above is the right solution for Eldar, I think we could learn from this excersize.

Eldar Biel-Tan already have great initiatives. That is undisputable. So they already are activating (avoiding BM) and regrouping in the end phase (shedding BM) better than something like IG and Orcs whom which have A) Lesser initiatives and 2) lessor BM management in the end phase by comparison to Eldar.

I think Eldar can SIGNIFICANTLY back off of the Spirit Stones rule and still be very VERY successful.

We've heard of some people removing the special rule all together from their games and the list working great.

We've also heard of people like Chroma that add 10% to every formation in the army and he's still winning >50% of the games.

The problem that I've come to understand is that neither of these solutions get to the core of the problem.

The core of the problem - as I understand it - is that Spirit Stones is available to the entire army.

Thus, I think many of us have come to the natural conclusion that the formations that need it, should get it - or have a CHANCE to get it, and the rest of the army should figure out how to manage without it. Thus the polls that you locked down.

The more I think about your proposal in this thread, the less I'm keen on it. It still affords the ability to the entire list.

I think the proposal would be better served if you limited the formations that had access to the 'free' BM removal. Example your same proposal, but the 'free' BM removal could only be applied to formations that were composed entirely of Armored Vehicles. (If there were infantry, EoV, Titans, or Aircraft of any kind in the formation, then the free BM could not be allocated to them).

This would instill a greater 'limited' effect to the formations that could use the ability and target the ones that should have it. It would also give the eldar player flexability in allocation of the free removal which appears to be what you are after, but if there are too many qualified formations, then you would not be able to have enough 'free BM' removal to help them all.

I definitely think the ability should only be usable for unbroken formations. I also think the ability should only be usable to formations that have successfully rallied of course. The ability should not be automatic (unless initiative dictatest hat result) in otherwords.

However - all of this is only relevant if you maintain the current request.

Frankly, I think the ability should be targeted to X units and the ability only works if all units in the formation have th Spirit Stones ability.

To me - this is KISS. Its very straight forward, and it means you only get it if the formation is all AV's. I would still require that the ability only take effect when a successful regroup is performed of course to keep the 'chance' ability in effect.

Anyway - just my thoughts.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:29 pm 
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At this point I think most everyone has made their position clear. The rule that MC has proposed isn't one I favor, but I'll playtest it for a month or two (though, for me, that'll probably be just 2-3 games) and I'll comment on my experience.

One good thing about the suggested fix is that it will show very quickly which formations have the most "use" for the extra BM removal. Also, it will show which formations don't fair well without the current rule. I predict that in the long run this rule will result in armies with more aspect hosts and fewer armor troupes, but my far-seeing has never been all that good, so I guess we'll see.


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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:13 pm 
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Will it? I think such a test will rather show that assualt formations will use it to boost their chances and the 3 strong armour formation will be a secondary priority. But I could be wrong :)

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:06 am 
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Quote (Tactica @ 06 Mar. 2006 (11:15))
The more I think about your proposal in this thread, the less I'm keen on it. It still affords the ability to the entire list.

What you are still failing to realize it seems that this is not a rule suggestion at all. This is a fact finding experiment. All replacements for Spirit Stones at this time has been based on conjecture or anecdotes.

Truth be told Eldar suffered from Blast marker management before Spirit Stones (minor for Tournament play but obvious in anything that last longers than 3-4 turns). Now they excell with Spirit Stones.

Where we left off at the end of playtesting was there was no specific formation that this neccessarily could be attributed to. All the forms of a specific Leader, like other armies have, did not satisfy problem and that's why it was never used.

Since we've had Spirit Stones, the original problem has been lost and replaced with a bigger one it seems. We have to go back to the original problem. We have to find out if it is an issue with specific formations only or if it is after all an issue with the army as a whole. This is why we must follow my suggestion. We cannot build any sort of reasonible solution without knowing what it is we are trying to address.

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