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What are the issues with Spirit Stones? |
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| Chroma |
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada |
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| Justiniel |
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Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:59 am Posts: 3280 Location: Holywood, Northern Ireland |
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All these are basically the same question. I don't object to the mechanics of the stones in general (though the background description/justification is rather bad, imho). The real issue is that there was not sufficient testing to adequately determine point values.
As you may have picked up on, I think the part of the problem is that there were some very vocal people involved in playtesting that either didn't "get it" with respect to the design concept or simply preferred to play differently than the intended optimal style. A lot of the development happened as the population on the boards was expanding rapidly and that kind of environment makes it much harder to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to commentary and results reporting.
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Neal
| semajnollissor |
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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm Posts: 1673 Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA |
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| nealhunt |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA |
Maybe you are right in that the structure of the list might lead someone to believe it is supposed to work as a blitzkrieg force. That would certainly explain my overwhelming sense that it was a desire for the Eldar to be able to work that way that led to introuding Spirit Stones. Too bad the army is specfically NOT supposed to be a blitzkrieg style force in the sense of rolling forward quickly over the enemy. That is way too "stand and deliver" to fit with the Eldar background. The idea is that they are supposed to hit and run, strike and melt away, never facing a direct fight. _________________ Neal |
| The_Real_Chris |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London |
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| Jaldon |
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year. |
Nope, wouldn't bother one snit IF it fit the fluff and the intended goal of the army. IG smaller formations with 'free' Commisaars do it all the time and it doesn't 'bother' me. 2) Some people believe that Spirit Stones are unnecessary. If all you ever come up against are Warhosts + WE's, then I can understand why one would feel that way. However, if such forces are typical, that tells me that the other available formations might be at some disadvantage that needs to be addressed. |
Before the arrival of Spirit Stones these 'other formations' were acting like a hit and run army should, now they don't. The problem at the time seemed to be that the posters that wanted 'spirit stones everywhere' wanted the HIT without having to RUN.
3) Spirit Stones give the impression that the Eldar get to ignore some part of the core rules. This is somewhat silly, since SM's, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, etc do the same.
No argument, that is until you reach 'Special Rules Overload' then it becomes a problem.
Personally, I think there wouldn't be any complaining about spirit stones if the eldar list were better balanced - they are just a convenient scapegoat.
The complaint, for my part, is that both Spirit Stones and Holofields working in CC create an Eldar army that doesn't need to perform Hit & Run to be effective and can therefore exploit all of its other special rules to the max. So this isn't a complaint about balance it IS about fluff and background.
The hosts set the tone for the eldar force to be a blitzkrieg style force, but the rest of the army can't handle that. Is it really unreasonable for an eldar player to want his falcon's to be able to be right there with the infantry, supporting them? I think the design concept went out the window as soon as people figured out that it was easier and more effective to rush up to the enemy and assault them, using the extended follow-up move to set up support for the assualt coming from the 2nd and 3rd retained activation.
It was much harder to do this effectively turn after turn, and survive the battle, when Spirit Stones weren't around. Now it is a standard tactic in every turn without any worries about the BMs going bye bye.
To be clear it is not a balance issue, it IS a fluff/feel issue.
Jaldon
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Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
| MC23 |
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 am Posts: 174 |
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| Jaldon |
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year. |
As I WAS away during the arrival of Spirit Stones I couldn't argue against them I had to deal with them. Having the Eldar have to RUN to stay around and work hard at a win into the 4th turn (Which before Spirit Stones I didn't have a problem doing, so I still don't get it) FITS the whole feel/fluff of HIT & RUN. Unfortunately, I still see as the greater problem is Eldar opponents and not the Eldar themselves playing Bold enough. You can't fight Eldar as you do the core armies. |
Well I see the original problem as the ELDAR players who were complaining they needed Spirit Stones should have learned how to use the Eldar Army without them before 'gluing on' a half baked solution. You know like trying Hit and Run tactics instead of the now popular hit and re-deploy tactic. Besides being BOLD isn't part of the Eldar fluff/feel, Hit and Run requires they be sneaky not bold.
That being quickly agreed apon, we knew we could look at this agian with ERC when even more people have played the list.
Yep, upon getting back on line it was real obvious that both the Holofield working in CC and Spirit Stones had been 'glued on' to silence some disssenters, it was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw them.
I have had this discussion before and get tired of being accused of being a cry baby, when my REAL complaint is that it RUINS the Hit and Run feel/fluff of the Eldar. While people on the other side of the issue say the detractors are to blame.
Unfortunately, I still see as the greater problem is Eldar opponents and not the Eldar themselves playing Bold enough.
The truth is I went back over the old threads that created this mess and found the very ones that claim they needed Spirit Stones and the Holofield working in CC were the ones doing most of the belly aching about having to RUN instead of being able to stand and deliver.
To quote from memory "My formations cannot get rid of BMs and I need something so my formations aren't continually weighed down by them" were the going things I read.
This same logic was used for the Powerfist, "Well the Phantom is armed with a Powerfist for CC so the Holofield must work in CC also."
A far less racdical, and simple solution, was offered. It was allowing the Farseers to apply their Leader bonus to a formation anywhere on the table in the Rally Phase. It was turned down as not being an effective enough solution for the ELDAR dissenters who wanted the 'all encompassing' Spirit Stones.
Look the Eldar Army was working fine BEFORE Spirit Stones I know because I love playing with my Eldar Army, and have been using them from v1.0 on, but they HAD to perform Hit and Run to fight and win.
Here is a challange, instead of all this silly playground discussion I ask players to boldy pull out their Eldar units/opponents and play a battle using the Farseer rule above instead of Spirit Stones, and don't allow Holofields to work in CC and see if the Eldar need Spirit Stones to win beyond the 3rd turn.
I am willing to bet you'll find.............
(1) They actually can win in the 4th turn and the 3rd turn WALL is like the WALL in the sound barrier, a myth.
(2) That the Eldar Army has to perform Hit and Runs and avoid toe to toe stand up fights, as befits the armys fluff.
(3) That the Eldar player must practice conservation of force by remaining mobile otherwise they will get caught and killed.
(4) That the Eldar Army becomes more of a challange to play instead of the slick ease in which one can use it presently, which in my book makes it more fun to use.
Any takers ready to bust the Spirit Stone Myth?
You know I will (And already have), any others?
Jaldon
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Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
| Chroma |
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada |
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| Jaldon |
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year. |
They did before the arrival of Spirit Stones which made that ability moot. Assume they have Leader and can use it anywhere on the battlefield in the Rally Phase. Thanks for taking up the challange Hena  Jaldon
_________________ Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin. |
| MC23 |
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 am Posts: 174 |
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| semajnollissor |
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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm Posts: 1673 Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA |
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| Jaldon |
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year. |
Let's see formations without leaders......... Stormboyz Warhorde Kult of Speed Blitz Brigade Stompa Mob An IG player that rolls low cannot put a leader in every formation So no not every other army can put leaders in any formation And you are saying the Eldar ability to effectively have leaders in every single formation evens this up because other Armies have the potential to have leaders in every formation? Sorry but that doesn't seem very fair to me. I understand why, because in 40k the Eldar don't have any 'minor' character upgrades that improve the Ld of a squad. But the thing is, if an epic-sized Eldar army had the same C&C constraints as a 40k-sized Eldar army, then the Eldar could never mount any plausibly successful campaigns. The army would just run away. There has to be a mechanism somewhere in the transition between the two scales that keeps the Eldar army on the the battlefield. |
So irregular military formations in the real world that operate without a strict C&C structure are incapable of staying in the field because of it. Moseby and Forrest would be suprised to hear that.
I, personally, blame the hit-and-run rules for any undue eldar strengths. Specically, the part of the rules that allow eldar formations to make a full move after winning an assault. It would have been more fair to say they could move 10cm or 15cm, istead of the potential 35cm that things like jetbikes can do. But, it is too late for that to change.
Before Spirit Stones I felt it worked fine as the Eldar had to time their attacks to take into account their poor recyle ability with BMs. Now they don't, which is where the problem sets in, those small formations remain constantly active at full ability without constrant, making them more powerful then their size would make one think.
From my point of view as an Eldar player,
And from my point of view as an Eldar player before Spirit Stones I had to think hard about timing my actions, with them it is almost too easy, doesn't feel right, and I think real cheezy as those spirit stones cannot be made a target at all like everybody elses units that do have leader. So I do not like it at all.
Finally, I think any discussion of removing the spirit stone rule should wait until the SM list gets straightened out. We want a balanced list, not a nerfed one.
So discussion is bad?
Jaldon