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Some more musings
ragnarok	Post subject: Some more musings Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:43 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm Posts: 2084 Location: Reading, England	I?ve been musing on the list and some of the comments that Stone-Foxx brought up as well as other threads (such as the T-Terror). ?As a result I have come up with some thoughts ideas and random mumblings, which I will try to present here in a semi coherent manner. Raveners. Still a bug for the whole common uncommon issue, since they are reasonable common. ?I believe that their stats are about right for a brood of 3 to 5 of them (ie a stand) but if they do get bumped to LV then they should go down, as I have already mentioned in other places. Being too hordie. This seems to be a problem that has cropped up in recent iterations of the list. ?It appears that we can put too many warm bodies on the table for any reasonable balance list to deal with. ?My initial reaction to this was ?Well that is a bug list?, but it still felt wrong. ?As I thought about it, and other things, a random nugget of an idea took root and grew. What if the nid list was only semi hordie? ?Basically the small bugs stay cheap and plentiful (as they should be) but the uncommon bugs, well some of them, go back to their old expensive stats and costs. ?The reason was due to as few games of 40K I played (I know shameful , but the group I run at the school I work at are youngsters so only play 40K). ?I have three Gauntii species. ?Gauntii Hastait, Gauntii Principes and Gauntii Triarii, which are 5pts 6pts and 10 pts. ?I also have 2 carnies, with the cheapest being 150pts and the other being a ?god ?fex? weighing in at 285pts. ?Otherwise knowing as a bucket load of gaunt and a shed load of gaunts in cost. It might be the way I play, but I normally go for a mass of cheap troops, normally with all six slots filled with brood of at least 18 models (8 for stealers). ?These are backed up by reasonable expensive Carnies and tyrants. ?The idea being that a good mix of powerful and numbersome units is impossible to stop. Translated to Epic a carni (assuming an average of 170pts) is the same cost of about 5 stands of gaunts, whereas the list version is equal to 3.5 stands. It would also feel more right according to the image of a nid horde. ?A huge swarm of gaunts with the odd massive creature scattered about amongst it. ?Heck when they (carnies) were 50pts each I still had a decent Bio blitz brigade for 400pts (1 tyrant 3 venom fexi and three screamer killers) Another way to up the cost of uncommon bugs would be to up their spawn cost. ?So that they are cheep to get to begin with, but harder to get back in the middle of a battle. (Termi)gaunts and all creatures of the Gauntii genus First off I would like the unit name changed to Gaunts, to represent the other types of gaunts available. ?Not only the devourer and spinefist armed ones, but rarer models, such as barbed strangler, scything talons (without the leaping) and venom cannons. ?Similar Gargoyles and Hormigaunts will have other variants. Once we remember this the values for all their stat lines feel perfect (except maybe points). ?Even a small brood of Gauntii Triarii (devourer and tox sacs) can do nasty things to the enemy. Micromanagment, why are we? As I thought upon the other aspects of the list two thoughts came to me (well a few more did, but most were forgotten or out of context). 1. Why don?t we split the difference of the cost of the (termi)gaunts. B) A comment made the 40K design team on the nids on removing weapon beast (and other mutations from the army list ?The hivemind would,?t experiment on a single creature, rather it would use entire broods? (I paraphrase) After a short while the two thoughts managed to convince me that they could work together and that Termigaunts should be 25pts for two stands. From that came forth the query as to why our list is the most 40Ky we buy each and every stand, whereas most other armies buy a formation and get upgrades (true the Orks upgrades are very flexible). I reasoned that it was because the nid list was (is) considered the most unformationed out their. ?As a giant collective they just pour in whatever troops they have available, thus the pic ?n? mix army list. Yet as I thought about it more I decided that it wasn?t right. ?The Hiveships don?t pump out the odd gargoyle here and there. ?The larger bio war engine size creature maybe. ?But if you order a gaunt creature from one then the smallest batch it would make would be in the hundreds. As a result I thought (yeah I know lots of thinking in one day, I?ll take the rest of the month off ? ?? ) why not have it that we buy gaunts in sets, ?for example 4 stand broods. These broods would have to be set up together with a synapse at the beginning of the battle (for example three warriors and two broods of 4 termigaunts as a formation). However the question is, would they need to be spawned as a brood. ?Ie if you roll a 5 then you can use 4 points to spawn a brood of 4 hormigaunts/gargoyles/termigaunts but you lose the last spawning point. ?This would stop cherry picking (I think that is the right word) when you spawn what you need and make the rest up in the odd gaunt stand. This could be a bit harsh, but it represents the all or nothing assaults of the nids. I think that is it. ?So what do you all think? _________________ Tyranid air marshal
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ragnarok	Post subject: Some more musings Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:58 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm Posts: 2084 Location: Reading, England	I should of been more clear.  I agree that we should only have three gaunt types.  Normal, winged and leaper, but should remember that each type would represent more than one type of crature.  For example the Termigaunt stat line could just as easily represent spine gaunts or devourer gaunts ect. With unit size it all really depends on ones preceptive on how the hive ships spawn and deploy the critters.  I see them making hundreds of one type and then dumping them on a single area, rather then spreading them out amongst the tyants who want/need them _________________ Tyranid air marshal
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Jaldon

Post subject: Some more musings Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:37 am

Brood Brother Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.

Another way to up the cost of uncommon bugs would be to up their spawn cost.  So that they are cheep to get to begin with, but harder to get back in the middle of a battle. This is exactly the idea I was messing around with while I was in my sick bed, as a way to get better control over spawning, and 'slow down' the ability to return the more expensive creatures to the table. In effect to create a Nid army that devolves more into Brood Creatures as the battle progresses. In other words are am thinking about making spawning more difficult (in costs) to slow it's use down. However I have no plans to eliminate it. Jaldon _________________ Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.

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ayoras

Post subject: Some more musings Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:01 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:44 am Posts: 52

- This seems to be a problem that has cropped up in recent iterations of the list. ?It appears that we can put too many warm bodies on the table for any reasonable balance list to deal with. ?My initial reaction to this was ?Well that is a bug list?, but it still felt wrong I'm not sure to understand the last sentence, and I think you will find me single mind but another time I repeat myself : don't compare a TTerrors list with 130 models (or 180 depending the cost of the termies) and a reasonnable balance list! Clearly it is not a reasonable list. Ok you're right, nids could be too swarmy if you're not reasonnable and your opponent stay reasonnable, but I don't think it is fair to analize an army list with this point of view. Compare TTerror with another degenerated list, not a reasonable list (it is my purpose since the beginning). But it's my opinion, TTerror (or more generally a swarmy-directed nid list with any composition) is not a reasonnable list. A nid swarm should contain some (I underline SOME) uncommon (why not a minima?), but clearly it is only my opinion. We create the subdual nid army (so the 4th phase army), not the scout army. For me, the 3rd phase nid army could contain only brood, but not our army lists (in the background, first come the lesser, next come the bigger). - for me the carnies are just good at their actual price. They are balanced compared to the other army and the things they could do on the ground. Now if we look at the background, they aren't enough tough (it was weird to me at the beginning). Nevertheless, I don't find it is a bad idea to let them at the lower level of the bigger. Indeed, we change 'scale' of the game, so why not? On the contrary, I totally agree they should be brood(3) (brood(4) for haruspex). Now why increase their price to 50 pts, there is already the haruspex! Ahhhh, you want a 50 pts carnie and 75pts haruspex (with naturally better stats I hope, no I'm sure)!!! Ok you really want to force nid players play only common Brood? So boring!!! Variety is a reason I play nids. _________________

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ragnarok	Post subject: Some more musings Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm Posts: 2084 Location: Reading, England	Well my original feeling was to revert them back to their 50pts brood(3) stat line with more MW attacks and armour than you could shake a ripper at. This would mean that you could only take 24 of them, assuming a reasonable 600pts on synpase.  At 35pts you can take 34.  It could be just me but I would prefer them to be rarer. However a middle ground could be keeping their points the same but upping them to brood(3) and giving their stats a slight boast (+1 FF and CC).  Thus they becoming a bit more dangerous, but they are harder t bring back from the dead. As you are probably aware, I would prefer upping the costs, so the size of the army goes down.  I don't think it will create a one dimensional army of pure gaunts if the uncommon go up in price, they were still around in the mega swarm lists, where everything was expensive and brutal. _________________ Tyranid air marshal
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ayoras	Post subject: Some more musings Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:20 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:44 am Posts: 52	O_O, for the first time we agree hena! For the carnies, I spoke about keep all their stats but make them brood(3) (if there is a problem with the current carnifex is more this). As you are probably aware, I would prefer keep the cost to keep variety in the model cost (35/50/75/100) _________________
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thurse

Post subject: Some more musings Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:23 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:13 pm Posts: 185 Location: Dundee, Scotland

I totally agree they should be brood(3) (brood(4) for haruspex) I agree too. For their cost, they are okay with their stats, but when it comes to spawning, it is very different, as they are very hard to kill. As an argument, what would you do (most of the time),if you had a choice between spawning 2 termies or 1 carnifex. Well I think it's a no-brainer! But again, the special rules are not the problem on their own, as they can be balanced with brood cost. don't compare a TTerrors list with 130 models (or 180 depending the cost of the termies) and a reasonnable balance list

IMHO, TTerrors list is not unbalanced in design : it is quite fluffy, can face many opponents regardless of their army list.
Today ( or yesterday because of the new suggestions... ), it is overpowered because of the current list stats/costs.

Honestly, in other army lists, "extreme" lists that perform well are rare and comes from internal balance issues that should be solved.