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[Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!

 Post subject: [Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:22 am 
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Yet another set of statistics - sorry.

What I (and I think you all) want is a set of rules where EA tyranids play as if they were the 40K tyranids in miniature. I think JJ did a fantastic job getting the stats to fit the models in the EA rule book. i.e. a Leman Russ does what a LR should, you don't have to know what the LR stats are to play with/against them (except when rolling dice!).

Matching the background to the stats is key!

column 1: Creature Code (creatures per unit)
column 2: EA cost
column 3: 40k cost
column 4: ratio

TW(3)   50    72     1.44 are synapse and therefore probably not comparable this way.


RV(5)   30   200     6.67
HG(5)   15    50     3.33
GS(5)   25    80     3.2
GY(5)   20    60     3.0
TG(5)   10    30     3.0
BV(1)   35    40     1.14
LC(1)   75    80     1.07
ZO(1)   50    35     0.7

Assuming that a ratio of 3 is about right...

In my mind this means that BV/LC/ZO are comparatively over powered (the price is probably correct for their abilities). The power of these creatures should dropped as should their stats.

It also means that the Ravener is comparatively under powered (the price is probably correct for their abilities). The power and cost of the RV should be increased.

I've heard on this forum that the LC and BV stats are due for a re-think. Maybe the RV and ZO should be added to the list.

----------------------------------------------

Changes I would suggest.

===================================================================
BV - Spore Mines 30cm 1BP, Indirect, Disrupt
    Notes: Only one unit in every two fires effectively each turn, count up the number of infantry units in the formation that can fire at the target formation and divide by two (rounding up) to find the number of autocannon shots you may take.
    Cost: Try 20 for now.
===================================================================
I'm suggesting dropping the range 40k Biovores range 48" indirectly, same a Missile Launcher/Auto Cannon and I don't se why they should out range them by 45cm!
Also keeping the barrage/disrupt because this just so fits the BV background (but halving the FirePower)!

===================================================================
ZO - Keep the stat's cost the same just increase to 3 the number of creature represented by each unit. (I'll still use 1 per base because that's how I've modelled them, "counts as" but we'd all know it was three really!)
===================================================================
I like the way the ZO plays, it's just the ability of 1-EA ZO far out shines 1-40K ZO

===================================================================
LC - change weapons to Rending Claws (Base Contact) Assault Weapons, Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack (+1)
    cost: try 30 points for now - come in formations of 1
===================================================================
LC are not that much better in CC than a 5 genestealers - so I'm dubious about leaving the MW.
The LC will now be used to harrass (no real damage) enemy formations. 1 LC going in should put 1 BM on the enemy formation before it dies in CC, enabling the brood that follows it in to gain 2+ resolution from BM, more BM.
This just seems more fitting to the role of what a LC should do.

===================================================================
RV - Drop the number of raveners represented by each base from 5 to 3
===================================================================
I've not used Raveners so I'm not confident about changing the stats/cost. Especially as everyone else seems to be happy with them, it's just what a unit represents that does not tie up! Most 40k 2 wound creatures are not based 5 to a unit.

Thanks for reading yet another long winded post.

Very interested in your comments.

Cheers Scott

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 Post subject: [Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:47 pm 
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With respect to the Lictors. ?Anmy bug assault should already be at +2. ?From the fact that they don't suffer BM and nids can do some shooting thus giving the enemy BMers.

Personally, I think Lictors should go down to a single extra CC attack (no MW) and gain commander, it is their job to show the other bugs where the snack bar is. :D

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 Post subject: [Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:05 pm 
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Leaders remove BM, irrelevant for nids.

Commanders allow muliply formations to charge at once

Supreme commander combines the two and gives a reroll per turn on initative tests.

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 Post subject: [Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:02 pm 
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Hi,

Models per stand does matter, we're trying to marry up the 40k background with representative rules in EA. When playing you can use whatever you like to represent whatever you like, that is what the "counts as" was designed for.

At the moment BV have 45cm 1BP Disrupt and Indirect (90cm with IDF) I suggested dropping this to 30cm and .5BP, so that'd be 200 points for 5BP. Does 25 points suit you better. I'd much rather the BV did what it's supossed to and needed a points adjustment (which is dead easy to do later)

I stuggle to give opposition blast markers (no independant large gribblies in my army yet) because I'm too busy closing them down, It's actually what I used the indirect firepower for before I found out that this was more powerful than the actual assault. (hence why I've suggested downgrading it). My idea was/is to use Lictors to put the BM on. you teleport a LC in, he assaults, he kills 1 stand (hopefuly), DIES, but puts a BM on the opposition for the kill. Job Done. I think of an "engage action" as a game of 40k, I don't think there is a formation out there, if played at 40k, would not kill the lictor after a bit of disruption and a few casualties.

At the moment the LC can be teleported next to a commander (HT) who then drags them into combat with them, 4 3+MW do more damage than the full brood because A. they get there and B. have MW. Then with the brood they outnumber, BM, more BM and the brood should carry the engament. This makes a huge swing in combat resolution and for me does not do what LC should do.

I like the idea of commander, but it does not fit with the Loner skill. Butting a BM on a formation pretty much indicates which enemy formation is next meal.

As I said in my original post I was unsure about keeping the MW on the LC. Actually losing MW would force the LC to assault and contact the weakest (save wise) unit in the enemy formation to maximise the chance of putting the BM on. Having written that... and thought it through, I'd suggest losing MW too!

Cheers Scott

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 Post subject: [Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:10 pm 
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A little off topic, Hena do you play 40k?

I play it probably more than Epic. When I play Epic, I don't want to have to analyse the rules for the enemy before I play them (I have enough trouble remembering my stats). This was the beauty of three EA armies from the main book, you didn't need to read your opponents stats to have an accurate idea of what they could do.

This is why number of models per base and unit power are important. Hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Cheers Scott:)

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 Post subject: [Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:42 pm 
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ferrumvir.  I agree that Lictors don't fit commander in the normal sense.  However I see it as more of the pherone trail they leave drawing in all the other nearby gribblies (mmm lictor and hieorphant combined charge...)

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 Post subject: [Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:18 pm 
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Quote (ferrumvir @ 21 Oct. 2005 (01:22))
Changes I would suggest.

===================================================================
BV - Spore Mines 30cm 1BP, Indirect, Disrupt
? ? Notes: Only one unit in every two fires effectively each turn, count up the number of infantry units in the formation that can fire at the target formation and divide by two (rounding up) to find the number of autocannon shots you may take.
? ? Cost: Try 20 for now.
===================================================================
I'm suggesting dropping the range 40k Biovores range 48" indirectly, same a Missile Launcher/Auto Cannon and I don't se why they should out range them by 45cm!
Also keeping the barrage/disrupt because this just so fits the BV background (but halving the FirePower)!

===================================================================
ZO - Keep the stat's cost the same just increase to 3 the number of creature represented by each unit. (I'll still use 1 per base because that's how I've modelled them, "counts as" but we'd all know it was three really!)
===================================================================
I like the way the ZO plays, it's just the ability of 1-EA ZO far out shines 1-40K ZO

===================================================================
LC - change weapons to Rending Claws (Base Contact) Assault Weapons, Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack (+1)
? ? cost: try 30 points for now - come in formations of 1
===================================================================
LC are not that much better in CC than a 5 genestealers - so I'm dubious about leaving the MW.
The LC will now be used to harrass (no real damage) enemy formations. 1 LC going in should put 1 BM on the enemy formation before it dies in CC, enabling the brood that follows it in to gain 2+ resolution from BM, more BM.
This just seems more fitting to the role of what a LC should do.

===================================================================
RV - Drop the number of raveners represented by each base from 5 to 3
===================================================================
I've not used Raveners so I'm not confident about changing the stats/cost. Especially as everyone else seems to be happy with them, it's just what a unit represents that does not tie up! Most 40k 2 wound creatures are not based 5 to a unit.

Thanks for reading yet another long winded post.
Very interested in your comments.

Cheers,
Scott.

Hi Scott,

Thank you for all of your great suggestions!

I'll come back and look at this thread before I do the next update.

Right now, I'm waiting to hear back from Jervis. I want to make sure that we're not dead in the water before I proceed.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: [Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:13 pm 
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Hi,

After reading your comments and reading parts of the swordwinds books (THUD GUN), I'm more than happy to go with your suggestion, Hena, about losing the BP on the BV.

I understood the IDF rules only applied to Barrage weapons, but the thud gun is an exception:

45cm AP4+/AT6+ IDF.

If we can make an exception for the Siege Regiments army then why not the Tyranids.

BV (30 or 45 )cm AP4+/AT(5 or 6)+ IDF, Disrupt
Note: Biovores are allowed to use the Indirect Fire rules normally only allowed to units that can fire barrages (see1.9.8). All of the rules for Indirect Fire apply, including the rules for doubling the Biovore's range when it fires indirectly. (copied straight from swordwinds)

I'd be tempted by the AT6+ stat. The biovore is primarily an anti-personel weapon (2/3 types of ammo can't touch tanks) hence the 6+. I know hena has playtested AT5+, but that's better than a SM Missile Launcher against tanks which is not correct.

Range, 90 seems a little too far IDF. 30 too short direct. I'd be happiest not copying the thud guns wording and saying that if follows all rules for IDF 1.9.8 except for doubling the range.

Certainly a lot cleaner than my 0.5BP suggestion, fits the background better, and there is a precident for altering the IDF rules for none BP weapons.

Cheers Scott

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 Post subject: [Rules] Infantry costs - 40k comparison!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:17 pm 
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LC.

Think I'm begining to be pursuaded into the commander camp. My suggestion pushes the EA game towards playing 40k (controlling each model) - a lictor does this, the swarm does that.

The commander changes that: together they can do XXX

Scott

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