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NE6 Revision: Core Rules

 Post subject: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:06 pm 
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NE6 Revision: Core Rules

So it begins.... ;)

The core rules section is to discuss/debate any tweaks, additions or modifications to the core rules. Turn sequence, orders, etc.

As is my custom during revisions I will list some of my concerns/thoughts/ideas. Of course everyone is welcome to add/discuss these ideas or any others pertaining to the topic at hand.

1. Points formula

For as long as there has been a second edition game and its successor Net Epic, the costing of models and their formations has been done by "eyeballing it". Suffice to say the problems with such a subjective system are many and well known throughout the revisions and years net epic has been about.

I think it is high time we used an objective system, since each players particular perspective on "utility" may be as varied as the players themselves. Therefore a "baseline" as to how things are valuated needs to be implemented.

I am aware of course that no formula can be completely balanced, but it does not need to be. Whatever inequities it may have a mitigated because we will apply it too all models and formations equally.

I propose we use the formula originally made and constructed by Robert Owen Becker​ (Magnus of Taccoms). While it may need further fine tuning it does a great job at taking all the components of model/formation "worth" and assembling them into a means of proper pricing. While we can debate if some aspect of the components may be valuated differentiated (higher or lower) is fine and expected, it does give us a solid foundation on "how" this should be broken down into for a "fair" cost to be applied.

Of course if there are others with their own formulas, we'd be delighted to see them and discuss them, but I would prefer actual systems of cost based on mathematical grounds rather than "gut" assessments. At least for me those types of costing systems have run their course and have failed to bring balance.

Discuss.

2. Fliers

Oh fliers rules, how do I loathe thee! ;)

Anyone whom has played net epic or second edition rules knows that fliers were tacked on as an afterthought and have NEVER integrated well into the core system. They usually wind up either being to powerful or penalizing the player without any fliers.

At one point a flier phase that preceded the standard ground combat phase was done in version 3. It was a disaster and promptly deleted by version 4.

While I have my own thoughts on solutions, this particular point is "wide open" for a good solution.

I have thought of a flier phase, but AFTER the ground combat phase, which would eliminate the issues of such a phase before the ground combat phase that has its pros and cons.

Although I suspect most want something that fits right in the one and only combat phase without having to overhaul flier stats and their attributes.

I'll listen to what ideas you may have before mentioning my own. Hopefully some flier genius can help us out. ;)

3. Effective firing range

There has been much talk about ranges and movement. Since an overhaul is too much to tackle and players feel comfortable with the current values, why not bring back the very simple 1st edition rule of:

Shots that are fired and exceed half the weapons listed range incur a -1 penalty to hit.

I think this goes a long way to solve the often quoted issue of lack of maneuver and just nesting on first fire. A -1 penalty on a d6 roll as we know is quite a penalty and should stimulate to close range to avoid it.

Thoughts?

Those are at least my pet peeves. I'm sure you'll have yours.

Let us hear about them! :)

Peter Ramos​ (Primarch)
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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:36 pm 
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For clarity, how drastic of a tweak will be considered before it is directed more to NEP or NEE?

Quote:
I think it is high time we used an objective system, since each players particular perspective on "utility" may be as varied as the players themselves. Therefore a "baseline" as to how things are valuated needs to be implemented.

I am aware of course that no formula can be completely balanced, but it does not need to be. Whatever inequities it may have a mitigated because we will apply it too all models and formations equally.


This 1000%. Until this happens, new units will be a challenge to balance, army lists WILL NOT COMPUTE and balance within the Imperium cannot be attained.

I actually had a bit of trouble understanding the Proposed Formulae, but that could be because both times I have tried to read it have been on a plane.

Quote:
2. Fliers


Well. hmm. let me think about it. I feel like reading E:A batreps back when I was more active (2010-2012) that flyers were a bit OP, if not so much that you had to have them to have a successful army. With that said, I don't know the best way to manage rules for them offhand. It seems that an Aircraft phase may be the most effective model in the IGOUGO play style. Whether it is prior to or after the main attack phase can be argued either way.

Quote:
Shots that are fired and exceed half the weapons listed range incur a -1 penalty to hit.


So, this may get to the larger point of "3 turn games versus many turn games". If there is time for maneuvering and adapting your formations, I think this is a great idea as it forces movement, if the game is 3 turns and out then what is the point?

4. Flavor vs. Efficiency
I always felt that a good bit of flavor leaked out of 2nd Ed, in an effort to streamline combat and gameplay. I am certainly not advocating a wholesale revival of the 1st Ed rules which could be cumbersome at times, I would like to see easily pluginnable (I totally coined it) advanced rules for the following topics:

1) Terrain

5) Transports (always has been lacking much like flyers)
6) Campaign rules? Do these even exist?

In writing this I think optional/advanced rules may be better for this type of stuff, since you would have the option.

I recolored some of this as I read the Intro thread and realized that it may be more fitting for NEP or NEE.

2) Morale
3) Titans (Putting a good bit of this together as well)
4) Damage (anyone up for bringing Critical vs superficial damage back?)

My point about modularity is still valid

MM

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:19 am 
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While the -1 for long range may seem like a fix, I am not so sure. Some weapon ranges are just straight up odd (a good few of the titan ones, land speeders?) and this rule will just make some weapon options or troops less viable.


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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:21 am 
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Hi!

Quote:
For clarity, how drastic of a tweak will be considered before it is directed more to NEP or NEE?


A good question without an easy answer. I can never predict what the appetite for change is, or how far the group is willing to go. On some point there may be more willingness and others not so much.

I guess only expressing ideas and gathering the feedback is the only way to know.

Quote:
This 1000%. Until this happens, new units will be a challenge to balance, army lists WILL NOT COMPUTE and balance within the Imperium cannot be attained.

I actually had a bit of trouble understanding the Proposed Formulae, but that could be because both times I have tried to read it have been on a plane.


Agreed. Doing it "by feel" has not worked in 18 years. An organized systematic approach is needed. Only the relative objectivity of a formula can accomplish this.

Granted sometimes I have found the formula to be "dense", but that is more my unfamiliarity with it and it goes down by leaps and bounds the more I re-read and use it.

Quote:
Well. hmm. let me think about it. I feel like reading E:A batreps back when I was more active (2010-2012) that flyers were a bit OP, if not so much that you had to have them to have a successful army. With that said, I don't know the best way to manage rules for them offhand. It seems that an Aircraft phase may be the most effective model in the IGOUGO play style. Whether it is prior to or after the main attack phase can be argued either way.


This one will be a challenge, no doubt. I realize that aircraft in real life are that overpowering, but in a game they need to be more balanced and not become "must have" units.

Lots of thought on this one.

Quote:
So, this may get to the larger point of "3 turn games versus many turn games". If there is time for maneuvering and adapting your formations, I think this is a great idea as it forces movement, if the game is 3 turns and out then what is the point?


Agreed. This point needs to be tackled with scenarios. Workable consistent ones with victory goals other than "annihilation". Point taken.

Quote:
4. Flavor vs. Efficiency
I always felt that a good bit of flavor leaked out of 2nd Ed, in an effort to streamline combat and gameplay. I am certainly not advocating a wholesale revival of the 1st Ed rules which could be cumbersome at times, I would like to see easily pluginnable (I totally coined it) advanced rules for the following topics:

1) Terrain

5) Transports (always has been lacking much like flyers)
6) Campaign rules? Do these even exist?


I agree in prinicipal with your point. Flavor did "leak out" with the advent of second edition, but that is becuase the 1st edition system simply did not work as an integrated game with all types of units (titans mixed with everything else).

That is not to say however that certain things could be brought back. In fact quite a few things were brought back into the game, much to its improvement.

Quote:
In writing this I think optional/advanced rules may be better for this type of stuff, since you would have the option.

I recolored some of this as I read the Intro thread and realized that it may be more fitting for NEP or NEE.

2) Morale
3) Titans (Putting a good bit of this together as well)
4) Damage (anyone up for bringing Critical vs superficial damage back?)

My point about modularity is still valid

MM


I'd throw them in to see what the community thinks. I think superficial damage versus critical does not work well in the second edition mechanic without some good amount of overhauling, but if you have some simple way of doing it, Id like to hear it. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:24 am 
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Mattman wrote:
While the -1 for long range may seem like a fix, I am not so sure. Some weapon ranges are just straight up odd (a good few of the titan ones, land speeders?) and this rule will just make some weapon options or troops less viable.


Hi!

That is a solid reason for not doing it. Share it on Facebook as well. :)

I know how 1st edition did it, which was range bands per weapon, like for example:

25/35 which meant over 25 was -1, but that is not half of 35. That way you can gauge the effective range per weapon without gimping some of them.

I don't know what the enthusiasm for this sort of thing is though.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:30 am 
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I will admit that the formula is rather long and detailed, but it has to be to cover all possible models and abilities in NetEpic. That said, if you have specific questions or concerns about specific parts, please please ask. Probably in that thread would be best. Anything that can be done to simplify or clarify, without loosing detail, will be done. See also the example I provided to Squiggleamp for putting cost to his Heresy formation.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:10 am 
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For anyone not in the know, NEE is Net Epic Evolution. I'm flattered and amazed if this is being considered for the revision, I always thought it was an automatic optional rule set as it does mess with the turn sequence.

Here's the link if you aren't aware of the system.

viewtopic.php?f=146&t=26063

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:01 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Mattman wrote:
While the -1 for long range may seem like a fix, I am not so sure. Some weapon ranges are just straight up odd (a good few of the titan ones, land speeders?) and this rule will just make some weapon options or troops less viable.


Hi!

That is a solid reason for not doing it. Share it on Facebook as well. :)

I know how 1st edition did it, which was range bands per weapon, like for example:

25/35 which meant over 25 was -1, but that is not half of 35. That way you can gauge the effective range per weapon without gimping some of them.

I don't know what the enthusiasm for this sort of thing is though.

Primarch


Anything with a range less than 25cm becomes almost useless with the -1, unless they have a really good to hit to start with. The Vulcan Mega Bolter and Gatling Cannon are criminally underplayed as is, this would make them complete no goes.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:31 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
primarch wrote:
Mattman wrote:
While the -1 for long range may seem like a fix, I am not so sure. Some weapon ranges are just straight up odd (a good few of the titan ones, land speeders?) and this rule will just make some weapon options or troops less viable.


Hi!

That is a solid reason for not doing it. Share it on Facebook as well. :)

I know how 1st edition did it, which was range bands per weapon, like for example:

25/35 which meant over 25 was -1, but that is not half of 35. That way you can gauge the effective range per weapon without gimping some of them.

I don't know what the enthusiasm for this sort of thing is though.

Primarch


Anything with a range less than 25cm becomes almost useless with the -1, unless they have a really good to hit to start with. The Vulcan Mega Bolter and Gatling Cannon are criminally underplayed as is, this would make them complete no goes.

Matt


Hi!

I agree with your points, post them on the otehr site too, people need to think about these things.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:34 am 
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I have been playing around with the points value formula, and the more I look into it the more I like it. I'm not sure it is perfect at the moment(at least my interpretation of it isn't anyway! Tis a cumbersome yet detailed beast), but it is pretty good, and something that we will be using in the future. So +1 for that.

NEE has done a pretty good job of implementing the "complete activation" mechanic too. One thing that we are planning to try out is use it but retain the orders phase, for that strategic feel, but even without it the game seems like it would be more dynamic, and involve less "sitting back on first fire" so therefore more fun. So I vote for that too!

Weapon ranges have to change in my opinion. If that means a change in movement rates too then so be it.

Fliers I have to think on more. Just by doing what they do they have the ability to tip the scales too far. I'd like to keep them activating with the ground forces if possible rather than in their own turn.

But most of all I would LOVE to see the armies updated to reflect the current canon, and include the new units that are now in the 40k (and 30k) setting. Games Workshop are continuing to develop their 40k brand, and while Gold does a great job of capturing a snapshot of Epic at the time, I feel that net epic needs to follow the progress that Games Workshop is making with it's other products. Net Epic can advance, because gold will always be there to represent all the reasons that people don't want to change net epic.
:)

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:25 pm 
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I'm slowly getting through the 30k units using 'The Magnus Formula' they just keep releasing new stuff all the time :-)


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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:32 pm 
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we could do away with the -1 at long range and make them small arms, give them a FF value and make an assault radius of 15cm ;)


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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:08 pm 
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:D
Sounds familiar...

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:20 pm 
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Hi!

The formula is definitely an "acquired taste", but the more I delve into it the more I like it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:44 am 
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Primarch and Magnus,

I was just over on FB and see there is some vocal opposition to the formula, but I don't know that much of their opposition is substantive. I don't want to turn this into an Us vs Them thing, I am just not much of a facebook group person.

Now that I have forced myself to read the entire formula, I really like it. It gives everything a baseline and honestly most people building an army from cards won't know the difference (unless they have been cheese balling it).

It also allows old and new units to be brought into the game. When I was putting together the Titan upgrades pages I pulled the values from places that would make the Chaos gods cringe....how else could we do it?

Keep up the good work!

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