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New take on Adeptus Titanicus

 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:01 pm 
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Yesterday I realised I'm helplessly obsessed with Titans and I remembered that AT II existed (I once owned the Epic Mag with this updated version of the original AT), so I downloaded it.

I like this system but I'm not entirely happy with it and have come up with several ideas for a new edition.

Basic game:
The basic game should include rules for Imperial and Chaos Titans only, no Super-heavy tanks, no Orks, no Eldar.
The weapons should be the weapons in AT II plus the Plasma Cannon and Chaos Energy Whip, no head variants or additional weapons and equipment. Stuff like the Deathstrike Centerline Cannon, Carapace Multi-lasers, Carapace Landing Pad or Corvus Assault Pod should be reserved for a future supplement (for supplement ideas see below).

In addition Auxiliary troops or Auxiliaries should be introduced (in the basic game Imperium and Chaos only). Represented by small formations of Epic infantry (6 units, either infantry stands or vehicles or a mixture) these will of course be weak. They will only be useful to support Titans or distract enemy Titans, they will not be able to complete objectives on their own. They will act more like 3d bonus counters that can be destroyed. There will be only one type of auxiliary for each faction, so in the basic game only Imperial and Chaos that can be represented by any unit type (no flyers or war engines of course), as long as they belong to the same subfaction. Examples: 6 daemon units or cultist units or Chaos Land Raiders for Chaos, 6 Space Marine stands or Imperial Guard tanks or AM Skitarii for Imperium.
I haven't yet figured out whatboni they can give, but they will probably give boni for shooting and close combat or mali for an opponent. They can be destroyed by a single hit from shooting or cc attack from a weapon that is capable of destroying auxiliaries (most are in my weapon list, but not all). Note that in AT II weapons do not hit automatically.

So as an army list in the vasic game Imperium will have all Titans (including Emperor class Titans) plus auxiliaries plus character upgrades.

Chaos will have Traitor Warhounds, Reavers and Warlords plus auxiliaries plus character and cult upgrades, so that they can field cult Reavers, Warlords and Warhounds which will have either a fixed weaponry with some boni or the same choices as the Traitor Titans with again some boni.

I changed the weapon list a bit with sevral new ideas, I will post it later.


Supplements:

1. Supplement: Xenos
This will introduce Orks and Eldar. Orks will have Gargant, Great Gargant, Mega Gargant and Supa Stompa, Eldar will have Revenant Scout-Titan, Phantom and Warlock Titan. Like Imperium and Chaos above, they will have auxiliaries and special upgrades. Eldar auxiliaries will get a single special ability, as well as Ork auxiliaries.

2. Supplement: Machine Spirit
Additional weapons and equipment for all factions and races. This will include all the nice things that are not included in the basic game for the Imperium plus some stuff from the latest AMTL list versions for Epic Armageddon (advanced hydra turret, AM icon etc). Chaos will get new weapons, probably inspired by the Black Legion list from EA, Orks and Eldar will also get new toys.

3. Supplement: Hive Mind
Tyranids come into the fray with their Bio Titans. Features enough stuff to make them ready to face the other races, including their stuff from "Machine Spirit".

Other supplements:
Superheavy tanks and other war engines. Not as important as the other stuff, that's why it is something for the very far future (in reality terms).

Comments and thoughts from the community appreciated.




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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:18 pm 
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Auxiliaries: Design concept
ideas behind them:
A) Look way cooler than cardboard counters
B) Make the Titans look bigger and more powerful
C) Epic units don't have to sit on the shelf alone
D) The battlefield won't be so empty

Why 6 units? 6 units cover a certain area, which has optical and practical advantages i.e. it will look good and they can prevent other auxiliaries from passing. To prevent them huddling together to stay out of sight of enemy Titans before they support, there will be a minimum and maximum coherency range.

Auxiliaries can destroy other auxiliaries, but only in an assault, so the shooting is Titans only.
They can attack enemy Titans, but will be destroyed after the attack, because 6 units are no opponent for any type of Titan (remember they are downgraded in EA). Their assault will give the Titan a disadvantage when he acts.
Another option for them is to assault a Titan while another Titan shoots at or asaults the same target. He will get a bonus for the auxiliary attack.

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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:08 pm 
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Two questions:
What don't you like about AT2?
And if you want a game that includes Titans and auxiliary units, why not just play the AMTL list in E:A?

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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:06 pm 
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You cannot compare EA AMTL with AT II. The Titans in EA are very downgraded, and as a Titan fan I don't like that of course. Up until recently I wanted to field AMTL and have even painted 3000 Points WYSIWYG already. But now I think I like AT more.

Another point is that the weapons have all the same costs. This was a problem in the old AMTL list and is a problem in AT II too. You are forced to give all weapons the same power, which just doesn't work with over 20 different weapons. I'm currently designing a changed weapon list and will make more changes to the AT II rules.

Also you can already see that the auxiliaries will be way weaker than the units in the current AMTL list. Some of the larger or tougher ones like Forge Knights or Skitarii are quite powerful.

But please no more questions why I decided to take on AT II and change it. When I post more of my ideas you will see more of what I want the system to be like.




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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:34 am 
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Quote: (redsimon @ 12 Oct. 2008, 20:06 )

But please no more questions why I decided to take on AT II and change it.

Suit yourself. I was only interested as I have a lot of time and effort involved in AT2. I collated all the development rules, queried stuff with the original authors, and re-wrote the whole thing to make the current version. I've also had 300+ playtest games. I do see problems with the game as it stands, and feel it needs a fair bit of work. I only asked to see what it was you didn't like about it.

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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:59 pm 
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Did anyone ever make rules for having non-imperial titans for it?
I remember downloading the rules and being a bit disappointed that my mate who likes eldar couldn't use them.


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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:36 pm 
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Quote: (Reaver @ 13 Oct. 2008, 10:34 )

Suit yourself. I was only interested as I have a lot of time and effort involved in AT2. I collated all the development rules, queried stuff with the original authors, and re-wrote the whole thing to make the current version. I've also had 300+ playtest games. I do see problems with the game as it stands, and feel it needs a fair bit of work. I only asked to see what it was you didn't like about it.

Ok, I apologize for being rude. The rules are good, otherwise I wouldn't use them as a base for further development.
Some problems I have already pointed out (weapons having the same costs).

If you made that file, maybe you can answer some of my questions:

1.) Movement: How does it work? The difference between walking and striding speed indicates that it is more complicated than just choosing to move with any action. But it is not described in detail and I can't find an example.
2.) Knocking down void shields. How does it work? The example implies that a hit does not automatically knock down a shield, but the rules under void shields imply that it does. I think the former could be better, maybe a fixed armour value of 10 for void shields and a penetration roll result of 0 or better to knock one down.




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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:36 pm 
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Movement: Striding Speed is just a second move. The original idea was that each Action could only be performed once, but this meant you could only move once per turn. So the rules were modified in a later copy of Firepower! mag to include Striding Speed, which allowed a Titan to move twice, with the limitation that both Actions had to be in sequence.

Void Shields: In the original AT2, Void Shields had armour 8, but Jervis found he could pretty much never actually kill a Titan as a result. So that too was changed and any hit would take down a Void shield. Suddenly Megabolters were worth taking...

I'm a big fan of Titan gaming, and I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with. Lately I've been playing more AT1 than AT2, but I'm happy to try anything. I'm going to have a good look through E+C's take on the Titan thing now.
Later, I'll see if I can upload the files I have for At so people can download them. I've got Pdfs of the Firepower mag articles for AT2, and Pdfs of the original AT and Codex Titanicus. I've also got the finished Ork and Tyranid rules for AT2.
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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:53 pm 
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Quote: (Reaver @ 13 Oct. 2008, 18:36 )

Movement: Striding Speed is just a second move. The original idea was that each Action could only be performed once, but this meant you could only move once per turn. So the rules were modified in a later copy of Firepower! mag to include Striding Speed, which allowed a Titan to move twice, with the limitation that both Actions had to be in sequence.

Void Shields: In the original AT2, Void Shields had armour 8, but Jervis found he could pretty much never actually kill a Titan as a result. So that too was changed and any hit would take down a Void shield. Suddenly Megabolters were worth taking...

I'm a big fan of Titan gaming, and I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with. Lately I've been playing more AT1 than AT2, but I'm happy to try anything. I'm going to have a good look through E+C's take on the Titan thing now.
Later, I'll see if I can upload the files I have for At so people can download them. I've got Pdfs of the Firepower mag articles for AT2, and Pdfs of the original AT and Codex Titanicus. I've also got the finished Ork and Tyranid rules for AT2.
Regards,
Reaver

So you can only fire each weapon once per turn? I'm also not sure if firing a single weapon costs an action or if you can fire all weapons with one action. There are contradictory rules in the text.

All in all the rules probably need an overhaul to get rid of the rule remnants that were dropped during playtesting.

It seems I have to make big changes for the weapon list. I made it so that shields have an armour value. Several weapons can down shields automatically to counter this (Haywire Missile, all weapons with Shield Breaker ability). Or maybe I leave it that way? It could work. In the old list there are definitely not enough weapons that could down shields automatically. So I'm, not surprised that it didn't work. Did Jervis consider such a weapon type or rule?

Do you have the article that introduced the Warmonger Titan to Epic 40,000?

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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:03 pm 
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Quote: (redsimon @ 13 Oct. 2008, 19:53 )


So you can only fire each weapon once per turn? I'm also not sure if firing a single weapon costs an action or if you can fire all weapons with one action. There are contradictory rules in the text.


Yes, each weapon requires an action to use, and each can only be fired once per turn (up to its Rate of Fire). There are contradictory rules - that's probably my fault for not editing enough, but at the time Andy wanted it quickly for Fanatic online.

Do you have the article that introduced the Warmonger Titan to Epic 40,000?
Yes - I'm uploading it now and will provide links in a thread soon.
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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:49 pm 
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Post has been made redundant.




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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:19 pm 
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I'm currently working on the army lists and rules for auxiliaries.

But I have a question regarding the copyright:
Technically I'm basing the game on the rules of Adeptus Titanicus II (initial release and re-release). Do I need permission from GW to release the rules, even though I don't plan to use original images or original background text?
What may/should I do?

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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:25 pm 
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Depends on what you mean by 'release'. If you just want to make a pdf for people to download, then while you technically should have GW's permission, nobody seems to complain. But if you plan to sell, expect to be jumped on by lawyers PDQ.
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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:20 pm 
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I don't want to sell of course, but could I offer it as a download on any site (for free)?

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 Post subject: New take on Adeptus Titanicus
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:07 am 
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Technically, the answer is 'no', and in the past, GW have asked people to remove such downloads from the web. However, recently, the attitude seems to have slackened - why I don't know, but you'd probably be fine offering it for downloads now. I have to say though, that having now played E+C's version of AT, I'm not going back to AT2 in any form.
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