Ok, this thread has three objectives.......

(1) To propose fixes for the Squat Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, and to further its development. Last to improve its points balance.

(2) To do the same for the Demiurg list.

(3) To see if a some similarities can be agreed upon concerning the Demiurg/Squat lists while still keeping them separate.

The stated goal is to have the community agree upon the lists needs and balance rather then have the work done in house by Epilgrim's, and my own, small groups.

I think this is needed for both lists so we can at least present a better finished product to the EA community as a whole, rather then the in house work that has been done.

No insult intended here the work on both lists has been well done, its just that both need greater input to proceed to the next, more finished, level.

For more direct information contact Epilgrim for the Demiurg List and my humble self for the Squat List.

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

For my part here goes on the Thurgrimm's Squat List proposals. Some of these are mine others have been suggested by other players.

(1) Increase the cost of the Goliath Mega-Cannon Battery to 300pts

(2) Increase the cost of the Gun Battery to 200pts

(3) Change the Thunderer Battery to 1 to 4 Thunderers for 50pts each

(4) Reduce the Army to 0-1 Spartan Upgrade of 1-8 Spartans for 25pts each

(5) Increase the cost of the Overlord to 250pts each

(6) Add a Hearthguard upgrade to the Warrior Brotherhood Lord for 50pts

(7) Give the Bezerkers a +1 CC Attack and increase the Cost of the Brotherhood to 200-225pts. The Bezerker upgrade would then go up to 125-150pts. An alternative would be to reduce the Brotherhood to 6xBezerkers and make the cost 175pts.

(8) Change the Thunderers to FF 3+, no points cost adjustment, yet

(9) Remove 'Mounted' from the Tarantula, Thudd Gun, Mole Mortar, and Thunderfire.

(10) Increase the Doom Storm Missiles (Cyclops) and Plasma Missiles (Colossus) to 3xBPMW or 4xBPMW but may them single shot weapons

(11) Increase the cost of the Bomb Battle Car to 200pts

'Stubborn' In numerous games we have found the present Stubborn Rule doesn't give the Squats a huge advantage, as many seem to think. See the batrep in the Battle Report section to see what I mean. As it was real tough to get this to work right in the first place I am loath to change how it works now. The rule reflects the results achieved in SM/TL Squats and they called it Stubborn in that rules set.

If someone wants to purpose a name change to something like 'Determined' then we are open to change it. But the rule itself hasn't been a problem. Besides we have been using it for so long that any points adjustments would be easier to impliment if we don't change it.

'Hellfury Pulse' We have been unable to think of anything else to reflect how the weapon worked in SM/TL other then the present rule. However that doesn't mean we are happy with it. We are wide open to suggestions here.

'Tunnelers' It is simple, it works, and is in the Epic-A rule book as we have it written in the Squat rules. As this is a bedrock rule presented in Epic-A we ar hesitant to change it in the least.

'Demiurg/Squats' This is only our collective, opinion from the local group that is (And I concur), but we think that these two races should remain as separate races. Not only because they are in the 40K history but also because it would make both more interesting and give players of Squats more options. That said, because both are drawn from similar backgrounds and now use the same models it wouldn't be a bad idea to draw some similarities between them. In this we are open for suggestions from the collective minds out there.

Thanks All..................

Jaldon

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

How about calling it "Bloody Determination" instead of "Stubborn"?

The name seems to be the real hold-up so changing it might be an idea.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Can't really see anything that I would disagree with without having to test it a few times. It all seems like reasonable suggestions

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Sounds good to me !

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Great idea to put them together!

I cannot comment the 2d6/3d6 system as haven't tested it is worth testing.

Thurgrim list:
(sorry if this is old version, it was what I have once found and have no version marking)

Bomb battlecar rad bomb is something like MW2+ TK(d3) use barrage template - so does this mean that roll once for every target inside it, killing on 2+ (3+ on cover) unless WE/inv. save target which takes d3 hits?

Trikes have 4+ FF and EAFFMW ? 6 for 260 - could this be the absolutely best engagement unit ever made? :]

My version does not have cost for Thunder battle car...

As I recall Thunderfires were once sold in sets of 2 - I might be wroing, of course - but on that line I would prefer that they come in sets of 1-2 and have 3x AA

Why is Iron Eagle LV? Looks like Vulture or Valkyrie for me..

Should Overlord be a support craft? Or at least skimmer... The fluff text talks about massed AA batteries but stats have none.


If both Thurgrim and Demiurg are to be saved, they should have identical stats for same units in my opinion... In general in my opinion Demiurg list has better stats for vehicles (trikes, goliaths, thunderfire, iron eagles, iron hawk, overlord,...) but not WEs (colossus, cyclops, land train - those overlapping BPs are not that great)

for my purpose I agree with Jaldon on the consolidation of unit stats wherever possible, but leave the fictional elements and army lists as seperate and distinct, as Jaldon said more options for the players.

the other factor that I would like to fine tune would be "Stubborn". At last opportunity I had been analyzing a few options and when I can get home I will try to wade through some additional tests to see if the list can be pared down further.

Perhaps a best case option for unit consolidation would be direct comparison of units in small groups, say 3 or four at a time?

ep

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

The 3d6 rule - could it be a 'unit' ability given to infantry. You get the 3d6 if any of them die int he assault. Means you don't make a WE assault list. PLus if no Squats die I don't see why they should get any bonus!

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I haven't been following the previous threads, but was the consensus on LI's idea for stubborn (ie saving throws for hack downs)?

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Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

Bomb battlecar rad bomb is something like MW2+ TK(d3) use barrage template - so does this mean that roll once for every target inside it, killing on 2+ (3+ on cover) unless WE/inv. save target which takes d3 hits?

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

Just a Sidebar ... Exodus War's Khazari would make good Demis ... or Squats !

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Keep them as much apart as possible stat wise. They aren't the same after all. Demiurg are demiurg and squats are squats. Yes, that's a problem when you field and meet them. But better that than small differences.

As it is now there's atleast three "squat" lists. Of which two are for squats and one is for something else.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

I think it is BAD idea to have different stats for the same vehicle in different lists. A rhino is a rhino regardless who drives it.

Of course the infantry stands a different thing. Plus WEs (and some vehicles) could have different weaponload. But things like armor, DC, speed should not be completely different in every list.

If not the same then really not the same. If the same, then really the same.
So if it's a army list á la space marine or imperial guard etc that have several "flavours" than it's ok with sevceral lists and the same stats.
But that perhaps should be decided first?
Ie is the job here to make the generic squat list?

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Erik M,

I think you may misunderstand what we are trying to achieve. We are not trying create two completely different sets of units that use similar models.

In the same way that the core armies have been tailored to new ideas Minervans, Inquisition, Dark Angels, Elysians, etc., the purpose is to have two diverengent lists that are based on a common unit pool.

For example, our basic troopers are exactly the same, but the organizational aspects of the formations are quite different which in turn means the tactical use of each is different.

As far as differences, the Squats have the Spartan transport tank, the Demiurg have access to Spacecraft. Their war engines are similar, however, the Squats tend to be more robust, while the Demiurg use a very effective alternate shielding technology.

There are numerous other similarities and differences, some which will dissappear, others may stay the same or even move dramatically apart, but they will be of best use to the community if they are closely related.

ep

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)