AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? |
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?  Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:56 pm |
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Given this premise, does that mean that GW might keep epic even if the other SG games get canned?
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dafrca
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:11 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 10 2005 June,06:53) | | Jervis is in a "lose-lose" situation. He tries to do the best he can with what little is given to him, but since its not enough the situation only worsens. He's only one employee, not the boss, certainly not who calls the shots for resource allocation and marketing strategy. It doesnt matter how many fans help him, since GW will only evalute on the merits of revenue made vs. resources spent. They made that decision and it is in epic's detriment. |
Amen Brother Primarch, Amen. 
dafrca
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dafrca
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:14 am |
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| Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 10 2005 June,10:56) | | Given this premise, does that mean that GW might keep epic even if the other SG games get canned? |
History shows they have less of a chance of that then just dumping the whole thing out and starting over. 
But of course one can hope. 
dafrca
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:46 am |
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| Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 10 2005 June,18:56) | | Given this premise, does that mean that GW might keep epic even if the other SG games get canned? |
Not necessarily, I am afraid. The fact that Epic outperforms its estimates it more due to the fact that estimates were very low after E40K. In fact, I would say that Epic is one of the more in danger products. Games like Necro and Mordheim require very few minis and updates now, and games like Gothic are very well established. Epic suffers exactly the same problem that E40K did - it is part released, has a reasonably limited following and requires an entire new set of supporting minis which cannot be drafted in to other games.
But, all that being said, I am not really worried about the survival of Epic right now... although I do think that this will depend heavily on whether the Chaos and Tyranid stuff is re-released!_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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dafrca
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:06 pm |
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| Quote (CyberShadow @ 11 2005 June,03:46) | | Epic suffers exactly the same problem that E40K did - it is part released, has a reasonably limited following and requires an entire new set of supporting minis which cannot be drafted in to other games. |
I think this point is an important one. With the other SG games, even Blood Bowl to a degree, the minis could be folded into their main core games. Further, the core games could share their minis down to the SG games.
For example, I remember when they put the rules for Space Marines and IG use for Necro into a magazine article.
This makes the support slightly easier.
On the other side, if they would just open up the archives and sell the older lines there is little they would need to "do new".
dafrca
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primarch
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:18 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 10 2005 June,12:56) | | Quote (primarch @ 10 2005 June,14:53) | | GW will only evalute on the merits of revenue made vs. resources spent. They made that decision and it is in epic's detriment. |
Actually, I think the revenue v effort is in Epic's favor. ?Since the EA release, it's consistently outperformed any company estimates and you know the profitability numbers were crunched from a conservative financial perspective.
That makes me think the problem is the overall performance of the Fanatic games, and Epic is just being sucked down with the rest. |
Hi!
The problem is not that the current epic did not sell well. That is relative. It may have beat expectations, but then again I'd wager expectations due to the previous debacle were low.
The problem is that GW's bar is too high. For true commitment and prolonged support it needs sales the size of 40k and warhammer. If they arent that big, no matter how relatively "well" it does it gets superficial support.
Even if Epic A's sales this time around were good, its still peanuts to even Epic 40k's take in in its 6 month run just due to the fact that that game had exposure in ALL GW regions, stores, online and independent stores. My local store back then alone sold 36 boxes in the first week of release. Even though 6 months later it died, its sales volume in that time would dwarf Epic A's rulebook sales by quite a bit.
In the gaimg world its all about exposure and pushing the excitement about a product. GW has not done so for Epic since EPic 40k failed. Thats a tough burden for anygame to dig out of.
Primarch
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primarch
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:27 pm |
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| Quote (CyberShadow @ 11 2005 June,07:46) | | Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 10 2005 June,18:56) | | Given this premise, does that mean that GW might keep epic even if the other SG games get canned? |
Not necessarily, I am afraid. The fact that Epic outperforms its estimates it more due to the fact that estimates were very low after E40K. In fact, I would say that Epic is one of the more in danger products. Games like Necro and Mordheim require very few minis and updates now, and games like Gothic are very well established. Epic suffers exactly the same problem that E40K did - it is part released, has a reasonably limited following and requires an entire new set of supporting minis which cannot be drafted in to other games.
But, all that being said, I am not really worried about the survival of Epic right now... although I do think that this will depend heavily on whether the Chaos and Tyranid stuff is re-released! |
Hi!
Totally agree. Especially about releasing chaos and tyranids. One of the worst things Epic 40k did was to NOT last long enough for all armies.
Chaos and Tyranid players must be VERY disapointed if they get nothing TWO times in row.....
Primarch
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primarch
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:31 pm |
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| Quote (dafrca @ 11 2005 June,14:06) | | Quote (CyberShadow @ 11 2005 June,03:46) | | Epic suffers exactly the same problem that E40K did - it is part released, has a reasonably limited following and requires an entire new set of supporting minis which cannot be drafted in to other games. |
I think this point is an important one. With the other SG games, even Blood Bowl to a degree, the minis could be folded into their main core games. Further, the core games could share their minis down to the SG games.
For example, I remember when they put the rules for Space Marines and IG use for Necro into a magazine article.
This makes the support slightly easier.
On the other side, if they would just open up the archives and sell the older lines there is little they would need to "do new".
dafrca |
Hi!
I have said it before, I'll say it again....
...GW should concentrate on MINIATURES, not rules. By this stage epic players play a whole host of rules, but we ALL use minis and would all gleefully buy them from GW if they just made them available for all armies...
..of course thats WAAAAY to reasonable for them....
Primarch
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dafrca
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:32 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 11 2005 June,13:23) | | Quote (dafrca @ 11 2005 June,02:14) | | Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 10 2005 June,10:56) | | Given this premise, does that mean that GW might keep epic even if the other SG games get canned? |
History shows they have less of a chance of that then just dumping the whole thing out and starting over. ?
But of course one can hope. ?
dafrca |
Hi!
Unlikely. By Jervis own words the WHOLE SG division is about 5% of what GW makes (a far cry from nearly 10% from JUST epic back in the SM second edition days). So, even being optimistic and saying half that is due to epic, its peanuts compared to the take of 40k and warhammer.
The point is that if they can invest 1% in resources to make 5%, they'd do it. But the investment of resources and manpower to make those 5% is probably more than GW is willing to do at this moment.
Primarch |
That may be how other businesses do things. GW has historicly shown they do not think like that. Their efforts have been more along the lines of: "If I do not make 15% in the first month of sales it is done for."
They have killed off many games quickly that seemed to be building support, just not fast enough for them.
But the bottom line is, we all see the signs. Death is near.
dafrca
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dafrca
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:39 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 11 2005 June,13:31) | | ...GW should concentrate on MINIATURES, not rules. |
I can not tell you how many times I have heard or read a GW person say something along the lines of...
"We are a miniature company that happens to have rules, not a rules company that makes miniatures."
I wish this were true, but it is clear they get way too hung up on their rules.
dafrca
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"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
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Legion 4
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:51 pm |
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As I said before, this may be Epic's "Swanson Song" ... After the release of F/Orks, sometime in the next few months (?)  , it may be a while before we see anything ...
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primarch
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:55 pm |
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| Quote (dafrca @ 12 2005 June,02:32) | | Quote (primarch @ 11 2005 June,13:23) | | Quote (dafrca @ 11 2005 June,02:14) | | Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 10 2005 June,10:56) | | Given this premise, does that mean that GW might keep epic even if the other SG games get canned? |
History shows they have less of a chance of that then just dumping the whole thing out and starting over. ?
But of course one can hope. ?
dafrca |
Hi!
Unlikely. By Jervis own words the WHOLE SG division is about 5% of what GW makes (a far cry from nearly 10% from JUST epic back in the SM second edition days). So, even being optimistic and saying half that is due to epic, its peanuts compared to the take of 40k and warhammer.
The point is that if they can invest 1% in resources to make 5%, they'd do it. But the investment of resources and manpower to make those 5% is probably more than GW is willing to do at this moment.
Primarch |
That may be how other businesses do things. GW has historicly shown they do not think like that. Their efforts have been more along the lines of: "If I do not make 15% in the first month of sales it is done for."
They have killed off many games quickly that seemed to be building support, just not fast enough for them.
But the bottom line is, we all see the signs. Death is near.
dafrca |
Hi!
Which is why I mentioned in the other post about "placing the bar to high". They indeed have unrealistic goals. I agree that is initial sales for them arent astronomical they tend to can the product.
Primarch
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primarch
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:57 pm |
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| Quote (dafrca @ 12 2005 June,02:39) | | Quote (primarch @ 11 2005 June,13:31) | | ...GW should concentrate on MINIATURES, not rules. |
I can not tell you how many times I have heard or read a GW person say something along the lines of...
"We are a miniature company that happens to have rules, not a rules company that makes miniatures."
I wish this were true, but it is clear they get way too hung up on their rules.
dafrca |
Hi!
Well they seem to "get it" with 40k and warhammer where rulebooks only exsist to drive sales, but they cant seem to get the same with epic.
Primarch
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