First of all thanks RugII for taking the list.
I am quite late to the party: i saw this a bit after it was added but i could not join in at first and later forgot to do so. When you created this version i was making some battle reports with this list but with the current changes i think there is no point in finishing them, as they were all about Kasrkin on foot's spam, and i do not see the list going back to allow that formation on core, even with changes.
We will play with this version from now onwards so expect some battle reports soon if the virus lets us.
RugII wrote:
There’s part of me that wishes the 1.5 Cadian list was made tournament legal so the attitude that the Cadian list is being crippled is seen in the light it should be. If a 1.5 Cadian list was taken to the European Championship there’d have been a lot of very annoyed people, it was overpowered and open to massive abuse, to some extent you’re going to have to take my word on that though I’ve a few demonstration ideas in mind if it comes to it.
175pts for 8 infantry units (with all the benefits that entails) with good initiative, good AP and AT shooting, good armour, and access to good upgrades and Shadowswords for support.... is way too cheap. A few lists have this problem (Ferals and Ghaz’s Horde) but usually it’s with a model which isn’t all that available, but anyone with lots of Guard infantry models can just “counts as” them as Kasrkin. When you can squeeze 21 quality formations in an army it raises concerns.
I agree with this, but for me the issue was more that it felt like this lists was the ''nails of the Emperor'' more than the Hammer, with all of the popcorn and the support doing the job, instead of how Baran plays even if they can get to that activation count.
RugII wrote:
We’ve learnt from the Kreig list that massed infantry in super heavy transports is VERY powerful, and 275pts for Kasrkin in a Stormlord would be a steal! We’ve also learned that if upgrades cost too much people will always opt to take additional activations instead. The Kasrkin in Stormlord base core formation has a surcharge, but the Stormlord upgrade is one of those which is discounted.
I agree with and support your reasoning, but i think that +100 for a Stormlord enters on the stupidly cheap range, on a unit that doesn't need that and is like a Baneblade or Stormhammer with option for cheap and low cost nearly unsuppressible AA, and transport with FF and shooting cheese from the platform which smells like the one from Krieg, which has not been reported till now as a problem or had changes because of the miniature's heavy scarcity. I know that transports should not cost the same as when they go alone but even with that i think it should cost at least +125 as an upgrade.
RugII wrote:
3) Poor list flavour with common builds - lots of Kasrkin make the army more like [...] or niche heavy infantry list.
jimmyzimms wrote:
That being said, core Kasrkin don't sit right with me.
I think there is a misunderstanding here: the list's main theme at least since Chroma submitted it to Fanatic in 2007 was about Kasrkin (on Chimeras by default back then), and Psykers second, and without them the list was no different from Steel Legion without tanks on the core options. Also background wise Cadia's theme is on elite and better trained overall troops, which Kasrkin on core represent well on the infantry side of the army.
What i agree with is that the infantry Company should appeal to more people.
RugII wrote:
1) Kasrkin are elite troops wearing heavy armour, they don’t walk!
They walk the same as normal infantry, for a number of reasons, but i understand and agree with the gameplay side of the change.
RugII wrote:
2) Whiteshields are no longer a cheap 0-1 no brainer formation, they can be included in a variety of ways more than once but don’t allow access to support formation. Their inclusion presents an interesting dilemma as they reduce the initiative of the formation they’re added to.
Well, they were stupidly cheap because almost no one was taking them and activate on 3+ but this option is interesting too. We will test and see.
RugII wrote:
3) The Ordinatus is cheaper and the crit not as bad, it has also lost Inspiring... the rationale is that it was/is rubbish, the explosion was bigger than a battle titan's but the unit only has a fraction of the firepower, and Cadians do not revere Ordinatus like the Mechanicus so won't find it Inspiring or its loss so hard.
Yeah, you did the right thing here, but i would expect them to have the dispersion field (Inv) they had on the background instead of power fields which i do not understand why they have on the Skitarii list. Also on NetEA the same weapons cannot have different stats so those heavy bolters need to change the name, but as they never had AA on previous editions and the list has more ground AA than most Guard lists i do not think they should have it.
RugII wrote:
4) The Leman Rus support formation cheaper as there are just better options at 400pts.
I think that it is more of a problem that the other options are too good or undercosted more than the Leman Russ overcosted, and six strong Leman Russ formations were always more popular than ten.
RugII wrote:
I'm tempted to suggest taking Shadowswords out to further differentiate the list from the Steel Legion, it shouldn't be crippling as Cadians are not short on heavy firepower! But this is a discussion for another day.
I am up to talk about taking things out but as you say it is better to focus first on other parts of the list.
