Did you try the CTRL-Z shortcut? It typically works on this site to undelete things. How could you interact with my post directly?
No-one should be able to delete another persons post by attempting to quote it.
That said I will try and restate it all again.
Thanks for all the good work Jim.
I agree with you that the Archon should not be the BTS, or one of the BTS automatically, especially when his formatios is normally one of the cheapest.
As to the increase in price for the Tormentor, by making the AA a 25 point cost upgrade. I think that would be OK, if you did something to compromise or make the price increase worth it. Perhaps increase the AA range from 30cm to 45cm. 15cm is not that much, as enemy can easily outskirt a single Tormentors AA bubble.
The main reason would be so that enemy aircraft attempting to strafe broken formations of say reaver jetbikes, ravager Flotillas, etc would have to come into the AA bubble of the Tormentor to get at the broken units. There would not be the need to put the broken units as close to the Tormentor as possible. Enemy AC normally have a 30cm/and secondary 15cm range for their weapons. Broken units outside of the 30cm bubble are at strafing AC s mercy. Being the only ground based formation in the DE list, I tend to hide the broken formations in its bubble. Yes enemy artillery and long range weaponry will still be able to finish them off, but it is one less headache to have to deal with.
The second thing I discussed was the Barge of Pleasure. You asked if anyone had used it, and how well it performed, and the powerfulness of its Desolator. Being only range 30cm, with 2BP Disrupt, it is not a main artillery weapon. It is primarily used to soften enemy up before the main assault force strikes. When you have enough units in a formation you can get up to 3 BOP which means 6BP Distrupt. Not bad, and some of the enemy units are actually killed off. The extra BM are what make the difference. Especially at the combat resolution stage.
The BOP is a decent WE, and can move well as a Skimmer. I tend to use them in groups to allow an unharmed BOP to move in front of another BOP that has lost its Shadow Fields. WE block LoS to other WE for weapons fire. The BOP other weapons are limited 45cm, and with Fixed arcs limiting their use. The 2 AT weapons are AT5+ lance, so not a great threat overall. A crit kills off the BOP, and if done by a MW or TK, then the transported formation is auto killed off, otherwise they have a 6+ save from cover before disembarking.
Using 3 BOP and their associated transported units tends to make the formation the BTS. It also limits how many formations you can field, and that has lost me games when I experimented with large formations transported by them. In one game I only had 8 formations because I also had a Titan, and 2 VoP, and 2 Flotillas.
As to seeing lots of Executioner Landing Barges, or A landing Barge and paired Slavebringers, I doubt that the tactic will work well.
I had a game this month against an experimental Black Templars list with my my own Ministorum list. The BT player had chosen to bring his Space craft in on turn 2, dropped some Deathwind Drop pods, and delayed bring his remaining forces - 2 x Landers, each with a formation of landspeeders, and a BT tactical formation with tacticals, lots of Initiates, a dreadnought, and either a SC or a Chaplain. He also delayed his Terminators and his fighter craft. They came in on turn 3.
By turn 3 I had all my formations in position near the main objectives (except his Blitz). I still had 1 formations that could teleport, and I brought it in at the start of turn 3. I had 2 large groups evenly spaced so they were not intermingled, and could hold, or retake objectives. Each was in the 60cm range AA bubble of a Hunter tank (mostly). I had all my formations on Overwatch from the previous round, and had my AC on CAP.
When the BT drop commenced, the BT force picked on the formation closest to the objectives he wanted. My Blitz and right between 2 objectives he had placed 30cm apart. CAP thankfully for him was next to useless, but ground base AA did some damage, but no Crits. Overwatch fire did a lot of damage to his infantry and dreadnought, as well as his lands speeders in one group. However he totally annihilated the formation I had placed next top the point he would likely assault. One was Penitent Engines that had been hurt by his Space Crafts orbital bombardment, the other an Arbites patrol with Rhinos. My counter moves penned him in, moved to deny objectives, and take his Blitz with my Arbites teleported in Interdiction team.
I shot his forces up a lot with my Black Marias, Exorcists, battle sisters, and assaulted one with my Seraphim. I lost some of the Interdiction team from his own support aircraft breaking them, so they could not hold the Blitz. I took T&H and killed off his BTS. Because he had 4 less formations to activate on the turn he dropped in, he was out activated by my forces. I stripped him of 4 of his formations, broke another, and denied him all but 1 objective. He killed of my Penitent Engines, the Arbites Patrol, mauled the Black Marias with his Deathwinds , which I assaulted and killed off automatically, and Interdiction team with his AC. Most of my army was fairly intact though, because I had them support each other, had a decent ground based AA, and more importantly, because I had 11 activations on turn 3 compared to his 5, and possibly because he decided not to use Planet fall to drop his Landers.
Air assaults are sometimes really good, but if you put too many eggs in that basket, the enemy can out activate and manoeuvre you easily that turn and can win if you do not grab enough objectives, and then hold them. Thus why I do not foresee massed air assaults by Dark Eldar in Executioners, or a mix of Slave bringers and executioners. They are so easily killed off by a lucky crit.
Paired Tormentors might still happen with the change in price with the proposed AA change, but then all the ground based AA is lost when you then take 2 of them. My poor broken formations will have nowhere to hide then.
I believe that was roughly what I had posted.
I have copied the above text to a word document, so I can repost it if needed, just in case.
_________________ 6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.
Last edited by Deb on Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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