Wow! This is excellent work! Thanks alot!

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

So got a very quick game in against E&C on Friday night.

I took the following:

Great Gargant – 2x Gatling Kannon & Rippa Fist + Dakka Flakka
Gargant – 2x Gatling Kannon & Rippa Fist
Gargant – 2x Gatling Kannon & Rippa Fist
Loota Mob (Big Gun) + Battlefortress & Flakwagon
Supa Stompa – 3x Soopa Guns
Supa Stompa – 3x Soopa Guns
Killa Kan Mob
Fighta Bommers (3)

Against EUK Warlord, 2x Reavers, 2x Warhounds & Thunderbolts

Game finished in three turns. I had lost both of my Gargants, some Kans & a boy. Ben had lost his Thunderbolts. More importantly the Orks controlled their own three objectives and there was no in-broken enemy in their half. E&C had two chances to take the turn into a fourth turn but failed to rally both of his Warhounds in the Ork half.

Fun game.

Thoughts - Going over the list, we would drop the lootas for a second formation of Kans and spend the additional points on the more Power Fields up-grade. We are not sure about the rallying boost for the Gargant & Supa-Stompas, it does seem too good. Finally the basic cost of the Gargants with a cheap weapon load seems too cheap.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

My quick comments:

I think I made the right choice to tackle a broken Gargant near my Blitz on turn 3 with my two Reavers instead of pushing a Reaver into Tim's half. I needed the Gargant gone to face turn 4 (because even though it was broken the +2 modifier, with a re-roll, meant it was almost certainly going to rally and sit on my Blitz goal) and 3x 4+ rolls to rally one of my two Warhounds in his half was a high chance of cancelling Tim's point for holding his table half.

My broad thoughts would follow Tim's line of thinking. Gargants too cheap leading to too many WE activations to deal with, and the rallying boost seemed too good.

My older thoughts about limiting basic army list choices available leading to a cohesive compositional theme are probably on record somewhere so I won't get into that.

I'd also note that the Kustom Upgrade seems too cheap at 25 points (as Tim notes, swapping the lootas for another cheapo Kan formation would mean extra Power Fields for all his Gargants and Supa Stompas), and also that the Upgrades aren't all of the same utility: Some are great, some seem like you'd not take them.

I wasn't sure about the +5cm move special rule at first, but I came to quite like it during the game. Not sure about the 10cm counter-charge though.

My army list was an all-comers AMTL list:

Warlord
3x Plasma Cannon
1x Quake Cannon
Legate (Supreme Commander)

Reaver
2x Gatling Blaster
1x Multiple Rocket Launcher

Reaver
3x Multiple Rocket Launcher
Carapace Multilasers

Warhound
1x Plasma Blastgun
1x VMB

Warhound
1x Plasma Blastgun
1x VMB

Thunderbolt Squadron

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Without thge rallying boost for Gargants you have 700p WE:s rallying on a 4+ or 5+ (if enemy is within 30cm). With the rallying boost they now rally on a 3+ or a 4+ (if enemy is within 30cm).

I have a hard time seeing how +1 rallying bonus would be such a huge boost.

I'm very keen on having peolple giving me actual suggestions on upgrades but that hasn't happened very often. I think the Flakka dakke, extra powerfields and more dakka upgrades are equally interesting. Extra armour bitz, head of gork/mork and transporta are not as interesting.
Coming up with 6-7 upgrades that are equally good/interesting is really really hard though. I can't do it but if someone else can they are more then welcome to do them for me!

Also, i don't now where the 10cm countercharge came from? That has never been the intention of the rule to make that legal. The "push em harder ladz" rule is for engage, advance, double and march actions only.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Ok, we thought that as it was a movement and could apply the rule. Makes the counter charge scary though.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Hmmm... maybe the wording of the rule needs to be changed so it becomes more clear when it is allowed. Anyone have a good idea about this who is betetr with the english language than me?

Tim, what do you think about bumping the Supa-Stompas to 300p each but keeping the current format of the rules for them (+2 mob rule etc). Are they stil lto good for their points?

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

The army generally has 1+ activations so that rally test at the end of the turn is generally going to be re-rollable.

In combination you've got:

- A price cut on Great Gargants and Gargants (take the cheap weapons to get more activations).

- A 16.5% rally test boost on Gargants and a 33% rally boost on Supa Stompas.

- A free rally test re-roll (that can generally be saved for the end of the turn to increase the rally test boost's chance of succeeding even further).

These elements combine to result in a War Engine army with more activations, that rallies more reliably, and so can swamp the opponent with too many WE activations to deal with (cheaper Gargants with an engagement-focused theme) before the game ends.

With a re-roll you're rallying 45% more Supa-Stompas than a list without this rule, and 33% more Supa Stompas if you spend the re-roll on something else. I would argue this is not a minor upgrade.



My suggestions for a weapons pricing structure and upgrade choices are on record. ;-)


This being your intent, is it also your intent to only have +5cm for the entire activation, or +5cm per move within that activation?

Ie: Should a Double order result in a Gargant moving 35cm, or 40cm?

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

A big complaint with the old list was that Supa Stompas where very unrelieable due to them only rallying on a 5+/6+ when broken. Thats the worst rallying chance in the game. And this being a (then) 325p WE with thoose numbers made the supa stompa kinda risky to use.

So making rallying better for the list was a very intentional move, because without it the list would not be playable (IMO opinion, i plated quite a few times with the list).

The intention with the "push em..." rule is that every move you do gives you +5cm, so + 5cm on advance, 2x+5cm on a double etc.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Take 2 in a formation for the mob up bonus?

Hang about near a Great Gargant with the mob-up-lending bonus Upgrade?


Cut the points of it back down to its original cost if it's not worth it as a singleton.



I won more than I lost with the old list, personally.

I did not take Supa-Stompa heavy lists, mind you, the increased cost was speculative on that front and I hadn't stress tested it before stepping down.



Right, I think this rewording should be solid:

”Push 'em harder ladz!” - Whenever a Gargant passes an Action Test that allows movement, the player may opt to change the Gargant's speed rating to 20cm for the duration of the chosen Action, however if this ability is used the model will receive a Critical Hit for each individual move further than 15cm that is made during the chosen Action.

This wording should stop the Gargant from using the +5cm ability when retreating when broken, counter-charging, moving during a second turn of a tied engagement, post-combat consolidation, etc.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Thanks! The gargant only recieves 1 fire regardless of the number of moves it does though. But i'll use that wording with some modification!

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Love the thought of a Gargant list, I need to make me one

Thank for the work so far!

Oh. I thought the multiple fires for further moves was actually a pretty good balancing mechanism for eg: the +15cm speed on a March (for a distant Blitzgrab or similar).



This is the list Tim and I theorised about after our game:

GREAT GARGANT [800]
Gatling Kannon, Mekboy Big Boss, (Kustom) Flakka Dakka, Ripper Fist, Mega Lobba, (Kustom) Power Fields

GARGANT [575]
2 Gatling Kannon, Ripper Fist, (Kustom) Power Fields

GARGANT [575]
2 Gatling Kannon, Ripper Fist, (Kustom) Power Fields

SUPA STOMPA [300]
2 Soopagun, (Kustom) Power Fields, Mega Choppa

SUPA STOMPA [300]
2 Soopagun, (Kustom) Power Fields, Mega Choppa

KILLA KANZ MOB (NORMAL) [150]
6 Killa Kan

KILLA KANZ MOB (NORMAL) [150]
6 Killa Kan

FIGHTA-BOMMERS [150]
3 Fighta-Bommers


---

The Gargants are all cheaper than normal (so we can squeeze extra activations in), all the WE's have extra power fields (so shooting is less likely to damage them before they reach Engagements), and there are (theoretically) too many WE targets to stop as they rush into Engagement range (using their 20cm charge moves to get into CC when they do).

The Gargants and Supa-Stompas move into Engagement range for the next turn if broken (which is easier than normal due to their 20cm charge speed) and use their bonus plus the re-roll to rally in the end phase. The Kans are there to hang about on objectives and act as stalling activations on turn 1.

This is the basic tactic Tim used on me with his less-optimised list and I couldn't kill things fast enough even with a turn 1 mistake by Tim that left a Gargant 2mm within Gatling Reaver (Field Stripper) and retaining Plasma Warlord (Hull Melter) range. I suspect my standard all-comers Guard, Marine or Ork lists would be in serious trouble facing this style of list.

Can't draw a million conclusions from one game of course.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I'll take that list out for a spin this week

my own experiences have been very different, I find the list suffers from many of the same problems as the AMTL list, but with a comparative lack of speed and shooting power, I'm keen to try out the cheaper gargant builds to see if the extra activation makes a huge difference

is the basic premise to garrison the kans forward, then just run headlong towards the enemy with everything? use the planes to prep for engagements and threaten deathstrikes?

I am playing against guys of the calibre of Steve54 and dptdexys though so that may have something to do with my rotten record with the list....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Other thing to remember with the last test was that it was two low activation armies playing each other.

We also discussed a list with 4 or 5 'cheap' Gargants in it.........

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

The idea of the high activation Gargant list is to avoid the drawback of poor shooting (because of the cheaper Gargant hulls) by Engaging as much as possible (where Gargants out-perform Reaver Titans as FF/CC platforms).

The Supa Stompas are kitted out for ranged support mind you.


Keep the kans out of sight so if you garrison don't make it too far forward; they're for stalling early in turn 1 so your opponent is forced to make the first move. You don't want the kans being knocked out because they were garrisoned in range and LOS of a doubling Warhound or similar.

Use the planes to hit deathstrikes (as normal) if you're playing against IG, yep. Otherwise use them for stalling again; Maybe put them on CAP if you're feeling bold (but don't waste a re-roll on them, that's for rallying Gargants).

Move the Gargants from cover-to-cover, if a Gargant breaks then as a "retreat" move go right up into Engagement range for the next turn and use the rally bonus + re-roll to have a good chance of rallying. You have extra shielding on everything so you can take more hits than usual before you reach Engagement range. Use the 20cm movement speed where necessary to enhance your Gargants' Engagement power (or basic speed to get them into supporting fire range for a retaining Engagement Gargant - with only one Fire per activation rather than per move there's no reason not to use it for Doubles or even occasional objective-grabbing Marches). Even a FF from a typical Gargant will be brutal to most opponents, let alone a 20cm charge into CC with a multi-attack Ripper Fist.

Use the Supa Stompas' superior range and firepower to keep heads down while you advance with the Gargants. The Kans probably ultimately want to end up on objectives in your table half?



As it's a playtest, there's nowt wrong with chatting over your options with your "opponent"?

The object of a playtest is (theoretically) to test the list, not the players.

I'm gonna bring a more normal IG or Marine list against the Gargant list next time around.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter