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Points Formula Rules

 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:21 pm 
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The one shot-weapons is a good call. I used a Vortex missile yesterday for 48 points and took a Titan out with one shot. Too cheap - but I also felt 150 points was always too expensive, I used to tool up with Quake & Volcano cannon instead.

My "feel" really has no place in your formula but I'd be hoping the costing for the Vortex missile would come out somewhere around 100 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:50 pm 
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Actually, it does. You are reporting play-test data showing that a weapon took out it's target in one hit, and thus seems under-priced. Now, it could have just been good rolls that did the trick, but the Vortex Missile IS built for taking out shielded targets.

My initial thought is to double the current modifier of *0.1 to *0.2, which would make the Vortex come out around 100, so it might be better. I'll probably do this and the models on stands fire arc cost adjustment before doing more involved things, as these *should* be quick to enact.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:17 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
As your time permits post up those points you need to attend to in order of priority and I will disseminate those points across the other formats.


I'm not quite sure what you are asking me here. I just did type them in, and I don't see what good it would do to mention them in various places. Well, it could do good I suppose, when and as I'm actually working on a thing. But at any other time it would be, at best, a distraction. If you could better describe what your thoughts are here, that could help.

primarch wrote:
I think we are coming to the juncture where a vote on flier systems will be held soon and well see what people want.


Good to hear.

Actually, I've just realized another thing I've missed. Models on stands (Infantry, LA, Cavalry, & Walkers) all have a 360 fire arc, but all other models (with a few exceptions) have a 180 front arc. The weapons of models on stands are thus slightly more powerful (as they are more versatile) than the same weapon on a Vehicle, and thus should cost more. At the moment, they do not. I'm going to be fixing this first, I think.


Hi!

What I mean is that as you tackle the different priorities, you can either post them all here and I will inform the other groups of you changes since I said I would permit all participants regardless of favored medium an update on whats going on. :)

On the second point, I agree that a 360 fire arc is superior, thus a cost difference should be reflected.

Once the additional changes are logged in I will update the comparisons file accordingly.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:28 pm 
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Ah gotcha, that makes sense.

And I've just finished updating all relevant models for the "stand arc" issue and doubled "single-shot" modifiers. Now the tedious part of typing them all up again. Still, it won't be as bad as doing it the first time.

EDIT: OP updated with formula changes for Arc of fire and Single Shot weapon modifiers.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:02 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Actually, it does. You are reporting play-test data showing that a weapon took out it's target in one hit, and thus seems under-priced. Now, it could have just been good rolls that did the trick, but the Vortex Missile IS built for taking out shielded targets.

My initial thought is to double the current modifier of *0.1 to *0.2, which would make the Vortex come out around 100, so it might be better. I'll probably do this and the models on stands fire arc cost adjustment before doing more involved things, as these *should* be quick to enact.


Cheers Magnus! I was fortunate, I rolled a "6" for the number of hits landed on the Titan. The head damage failed to take it out and I only got one 6 for destruction on the remaining 5 leg location targets I rolled. That said, it's a powerful weapon & 48 points seems a little on the low side.

Primarch, you may want to re-work the Vortex rule in the Ad Mech book. It says that a unit with a hit location takes D6 then after that says that Void shields or Power shields are stripped. It would be preferable if the description explained that the shields are stripped first and then that the unit takes D6 hits. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:38 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
As much as I like the current set-up, I'm not just making this for me, so I have to take other people's needs into account.

This is big of you and speaks volumes about your character.
I tip my hat to you sir!

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Edit: @ Bissler: Spoiler Alert!
;)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:57 am 
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Right, I've just finished going through all Factions' models with Hit Location Templates and revising their values. I'll be updating the relevant army list threads shortly.

I'm not quite sure where to append the revised system for this in the main Formula posts, so I'll just post the current state of it here for now. Obviously it will have to be added to the Armor Save section in some way, but I'm not sure if I want it directly there, or just have a note there about it there and have it elsewhere.

I've added a bunch of Secondary Effects and a few more Model Status entries. Review and comment please.
____________

Determining the cost of the Armor Save for a model that uses a Hit Location Template takes four steps. These steps are:

A. Base Armor Save value
B. Lethality
C. Miss Chance
D. Final Value


A. Base Armor Save value

This is determined as normal for a model with only one Armor Save, except that you must find the total value for all hit locations. To do this, count how many locations the chart has with each Armor Save rating and sum these. For example, a hit location chart with 5 locations total has 3 locations with an Armor Save of 1+ and 2 with 2+. As a 1+ is worth 6 points and a 2+ is worth 5, this means the cost is three times six plus two times five (3*6+2*5). As multiplication is always done before addition, that means the total is 28 (18+10).


B. Lethality

This step adjusts the value by how likely a hit to each hit location is to kill the model, or otherwise adversely affect it. For each Hit Location you must rate each result on it's damage chart and add together these values. The Lethality of a hit location is rated by three factors:
_B1: Location status
_B2: Model status
_B3: Secondary effects

_B1 Location status measures whether the location survives the hit and whether or not the hit is repairable. Damaged locations can be repaired by Self-Repair systems. Some Crippled locations can be repaired, others cannot. Destroyed locations cannot be repaired. Blown off means that the location is physically removed from the model by the hit, and it lands on a random spot causing a hit to any model at that spot. See also Secondary Effects.
__ Location status:
__ No effect __________ 0.2
__ Damaged ____________ 0.1
__ Heavy Damage _______ 0.075 (may not be repaired this turn, but may be in subsequent turns OR may be repaired, but only partially)
__ Partial Destroyed __ 0.05 (IE, not destroyed but Secondary Effects cannot be repaired)
__ Destroyed/Crippled _ 0
__ Removed/Blown off _ -0.1


_B2 Model status measures whether the model itself is destroyed by the hit, and how directly.
Model status:
__ Continuing __________ 0.2 _ Model is not destroyed. May or may not be usable depending on other effects.
__ Unlikely Flashback __ 0.1 _ Roll on chart that can roll on chart that can roll on chart that can destroy model
__ Minor Blowback ______ 0.1 _ Roll something (generally Aim dice) to see if adjacent location takes a hit at TSM X.
__ Minor Flashback _____ 0 ___ Roll on chart that can roll on chart that can destroy model.
__ Erratic Landing ____ -0.1 _ If any Titan, Praetorian, or Building hit during forced landing, both this model and hit model(s) take d6 hits at TSM -2 to random locations.
__ Lesser Blowback ____ -0.1 _ Automatic hit on one adjacent location at TSM X.
__ Lesser Flashback ___ -0.2 _ Roll on chart that can directly destroy model after X locations destroyed.
__ Crash Landing, Minor -0.3 _ Roll D6 vs each location on template. On 4+ takes a hit at TSM 0.
__ Blowback ___________ -0.3 _ Automatic hit on two or three (or 1d3) adjacent locations at TSM X.
__ Critical Flashback _ -0.4 _ Roll on chart that can directly destroy model OR model is destroyed after X of this location are destroyed.
__ Crash Landing, Major -0.5 _ Roll once on each damage chart.
__ Major Blowback _____ -0.5 _ Automatic hit on all adjacent locations at TSM X (& Penetrate +1 per unused Plasma counter if used).
__ Destroyed __________ -0.6 _ Model is destroyed and VP are awarded. Model may or may not remain on table.

TSM Values of X are generally -4, but sometimes different. Adjust by 0.05 for every TSM of difference; if TSM is lower then add, if TSM is higher then subtract. For example, a TSM of -3 on a Lesser Blowback would instead be -0.05 instead of -0.1, whereas a TSM 0f -6 for Lesser would be -0.2 instead.

_B3 Secondary Effects are any effect on the model that do not destroy it, though a few arise because of such destruction. Value is per instance for those that can be.
Secondary effect(s):
none _______ 0.1
rolls +1 ___ 0
temporary _ -0.05 (effect on a Damaged result)
Permanent _ -0.1 (effect on a Destroyed/Crippled/Blown Off result)


Note that if the model is Destroyed, most Secondary Effects are ignored (movement penalties, no firing, etc). The only ones that would matter are those that happen as a result of the model being destroyed (Falls and Reactor Explodes! for example).

CAF halved: 1
CAF -1d6: 0.5
roll 4+ to give orders: 1
must have XX orders: 1
Titan falls: 2 (and damages other models fallen on)
Movement restricted: 1/ [Move reduced, cannot turn, cannot enter difficult terrain, etc]
looses Command: 2
Model blinded: 4 [may not fire any weapons in the turn this result happens or in the following turn. During Mandatory Movement, moves 5d6cm in a straight line and fights CC with any and all models in it's path. If it runs into impassible terrain, it stops and roll for damage on the Reactor.]
Model Staggers: 2 [moves D6+4 cm in random direction. Any models it moves onto take a hit on a 4+ with a 0 TSM. If the bio-titan staggers into difficult or impassable terrain it suffers D6 hits with 0 TSM.]
No Movement: 2
all weapons on model have to-hit penalty: 1
all weapons on model ranges halved: 1
one weapon at this location cannot fire: 0.5
only/all weapon(s) at this location cannot fire: 1
all weapons on model cannot fire: 2
equipment at this location cannot be used: 1 (Holo Fields, Jump Jets, etc)
equipment at this location triggered by the hit in a way that might damage the model: 2
equipment at this location triggered by the hit in a way that might destroy the model: 4
Shields down: 1
Area explosion: 1 per d6cm diameter & 1 per TSM
spot attacked: 0.5 per d6cm distance & 0.5 per TSM
Ethereal Psychic: 2 (only applies to some Area Explosions)
Models Transported in this location unharmed but unloaded within 5cm: 0.25
Models Transported in this location hit on 5+, TSM 0: 0.5
Models Transported in this location hit on 3+, TSM 0: 1
Models Transported in this location hit, TSM 0, models with no save get one at 6+: 1.25
Models Transported in this location hit, TSM 0: 1.5
for every point TSM improves, increase cost by 0.1
Models Transported in this location hit, no save: 2
Models Transported in this model hit on 5+: 2
1d3 Models Transported in this model auto hit @ 0 TSM: 3 (assuming this model Transports at least 10 models, increase by +1 for every 2 fewer models Transported)
May not add Plasma to location: 1
Reactor generates less (energy) per turn: 2
Reactor generates no further (energy) : 5
Psychic Save reduced: 1
starts a fire: 1 (fires are always considered temporary)

For example, the Imperial Titan Leg Location chart.
_ 1) Damaged, Move halved and cannot enter difficult terrain. Value is 0.1 (location damaged) +0.2 (model continues to exist) +2*-0.05 (2 temporary effects) = 0.1 +0.2 -0.1 = 0.2
_ 2) Damaged, Move halved and cannot enter difficult terrain. Value is 0.1 (location damaged) +0.2 (model continues to exist) +2*-0.05 (2 temporary effects) = 0.1 +0.2 -0.1 = 0.2
_ 3) Damaged, leg may snap if Titan had orders that allowed movement. Value is 0.1 (location damaged) +0 (I'm counting this as Minor Flashback because it depends both on a roll AND on what orders the player placed on it, thus two steps) -0.1 (half of Falls as it is possible but not likely) = 0.1 +0 -0.1 = 0
_ 4) Damaged, leg may snap if Titan had orders that allowed movement. Value is 0.1 (location damaged) +0 (I'm counting this as Minor Flashback because it depends both on a roll AND on what orders the player placed on it, thus two steps) -0.1 (half of Falls as it is possible but not likely) = 0.1 +0 -0.1 = 0
_ 5) Destroyed. No move or turning. Value is 0 (location destroyed) +0.2 (model continues) -0.3 (permanent No Move and No Turning (move restricted)) = 0 +0.2 -0.3 = -0.1
_ 6) Destroyed and Falls. Value is 0 (location Destroyed) -0.6 (model destroyed) -0.2 (model falls) = 0 -0.6 -0.2 = -0.8
Total value is thus: 0.2 +0.2 +0 +0 -0.1 -0.8 = -0.5 per Leg location.

If a particular model had 8 Leg locations, the value for those would be -4 (8*-0.5).


C. Miss Chance

This adjusts the cost by a factor determined by how likely it is to deviate from the model's hit locations. For this rating, having seven empty adjacent squares is considered baseline with adjustments for every additional occupied hit location. To determine this rating, count up how many hit locations there are on the chart that have the same number of empty adjacent squares and multiply that number by the value for that many empty squares.

_ Empty
Squares _ modifier
__ 0 ______ -3.5
__ 1 ______ -3
__ 2 ______ -2.5
__ 3 ______ -2
__ 4 ______ -1.5
__ 5 ______ -1
__ 6 ______ -0.5
__ 7 _______ 0


In other words, the more actual hit locations that surround a given location bring down the effective cost, as a hit is more likely to actually hit and not deviate into an empty square.

For example, a model with 9 locations is arranged neatly as a three by three grid. This means that there is one location with zero empty squares (the center one), four with five empty (NE, SE, SW, NW), and four with three empty (N, E, S, W). Thus (1 * -3.5) + (4 * -1) + (4 * -2) = -3.5 -4 -8 = - ( 3.5 + 4 + 8 ) = -15.5


D. Final Value

To find the Final Value, first add up the totals for parts A, B, & C. Next, take the total number of hit locations that the model has and divide by 5. [Why 5? Based on a limited sample, five seems to be the average number of hits needed to destroy a Titan or Praetorian.] Then take the sum of A, B, & C and divide that by the hit locations divided by 5. Mathematically, that would be: (A + B + C) / (HL / 5)

The final value is then inserted into the overall Points Formula as that model's Armor Save value.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:43 pm 
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Hi!

I greatly enjoyed your breakdown on hit locations. :)

You went to a much greater depth than I thought and have covered every circumstance that at least i can think of.

With this large hurdle surpassed, other than fliers, what other points remain?

Is it prudent to start discussing certain "outlier" units and perhaps breakdown their costs and analyze them further?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:16 pm 
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Nice timing on the latest update - Craig & I have a points formula 3K IG v Orks battle on Tuesday! Looking forward to it!

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:21 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Nice timing on the latest update - Craig & I have a points formula 3K IG v Orks battle on Tuesday! Looking forward to it!


Hi!

You'll be doubly pleased that the latest updated comparison file is up at the Epicentre.

You'll be able to afford some of those praetorians, they gone down quite a bit in some cases.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:26 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

I greatly enjoyed your breakdown on hit locations. :)

You went to a much greater depth than I thought and have covered every circumstance that at least i can think of.


The list was generated by what actually happens in the Damage Charts of the models themselves, plus a few things that are logical extensions thereof. Of course, it may not be everything that could happen on a damage chart entry, but it should cover enough bases for people to come up with reasonable values by comparing things. Assuming the values I used are reasonable.

primarch wrote:
With this large hurdle surpassed, other than fliers, what other points remain?

Is it prudent to start discussing certain "outlier" units and perhaps breakdown their costs and analyze them further?


The significant things I'm still working or (or planning to work on) are:
_ Merging formation adjustments into the "Model cost" list for easier use.
_ Visiting Special Ability values to see if they are reasonable.

Yeah, now would be as good of a time as any to discuss the models that seem like they may be off. Though I imagine that any problems found in those will largely be SA values, it's hard to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:52 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

I greatly enjoyed your breakdown on hit locations. :)

You went to a much greater depth than I thought and have covered every circumstance that at least i can think of.


The list was generated by what actually happens in the Damage Charts of the models themselves, plus a few things that are logical extensions thereof. Of course, it may not be everything that could happen on a damage chart entry, but it should cover enough bases for people to come up with reasonable values by comparing things. Assuming the values I used are reasonable.

primarch wrote:
With this large hurdle surpassed, other than fliers, what other points remain?

Is it prudent to start discussing certain "outlier" units and perhaps breakdown their costs and analyze them further?


The significant things I'm still working or (or planning to work on) are:
_ Merging formation adjustments into the "Model cost" list for easier use.
_ Visiting Special Ability values to see if they are reasonable.

Yeah, now would be as good of a time as any to discuss the models that seem like they may be off. Though I imagine that any problems found in those will largely be SA values, it's hard to say.


Hi!

Special abilities is a good topic to continue forward. The relative worth of them is very debatable and it would be good to get further input on their utility.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:09 am 
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I'm still thinking about how best to approach Special Abilities. It is going to have to be a few, probably one, at a time, but I still need to figure out how I'm going to approach that and work up any tracking files I may need. So it may be a little while before I really start into that.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:36 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I'm still thinking about how best to approach Special Abilities. It is going to have to be a few, probably one, at a time, but I still need to figure out how I'm going to approach that and work up any tracking files I may need. So it may be a little while before I really start into that.


Hi!

No worries. We're at a good stable point in the formulas progression. The additional fine tuning can be done at slower pace. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:06 pm 
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A few abilities are really powerful, most are what I would consider to be small beer. In general I wouldn't like to see a lot of costs rising except for a few exceptional cases.

Out of interest, I know there is the point comparison document but has anyone been making up sample armies to compare? Out of the 6 I own (Marines, IG, Eldar, Orks, Squats and Chaos/Khorne*) the balance seems to be pretty good with the exception of Squats and Khorne where my gut feeling that they do not get enough bang for their buck.

Has anyone else been making sample lists?

*I'd need other players more experienced in the other Chaos powers to say how they feel they fare under the system.

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