The Speed Freeks are a list I'd very much like to run, but some of the choices made in list creation are really bugging me, so I thought I'd have a go at putting some thoughts together. I'll be referencing the official tournament version.

Overview
One of my main issues with the list, at first glance, is that it offers almost nothing to distinguish it from Ghazghkull's Warhorde. Some formations are copy-pasted directly from that list, with little to no extra flavour. Some are copy-pasted with some additional options - these are the strongest areas of the list, in my opinion. The unique formations have some odd choices and unnecessary restrictions.

Also, Trukks are bad, m'kay?

The Good
Mekboy Speedstas are kick-ass.

The Blitz Brigade formation is great. I wish the Blitz Brigade formation in the Ghazghkull list was half as useful as this masterpiece. The ability to buy Nobz makes it functional, and all the other upgrades make it flexible. It's awesome. It's the gold standard for what a core formation should offer.

The Fortress Mob seems like it could be quite strong, since it offers a discount to the overpriced Fortresses (same principle as taking huge Stompa mobs in the Ghaz list).

Kults of Speed, focused on Skorchas, are so powerful that a local player apparently has an army with 130+ Skorchas that has done quite well at tournaments (I haven't faced it yet). That's... nice and all, but I see two problems:

Skorchas, purely because of their speed and 4+ FF, are apparently able to make up a viable army all on their own. No other unit in any Ork list can say the same. Doesn't that seem like an issue? If the game is so skewed towards FF combats that the Orks' single decent FF unit becomes that valuable, that seems like a major problem.

The formation is almost identical to the Ghazghkull Kult formation, with the addition of Mekboy Speedstas. It would be nice to see some more Speed Freeks options that could be added to the Kult of Speed formation to make it unique - this was done so well with the Blitz Brigade! Nob Bikerz at least would seem like an obvious inclusion to me - why would the Nobz hang out with everyone except the other Bikerz?

The Bad
I just can't get my head around the Warband. Trukks are like regular transports but worse - generally, you can trade off the disadvantage of transports taking their occupants with them when killed with the advantage of making your formation immune to AP weapons. The Trukk retains (almost) all the weaknesses of AV transports and makes the formation even more vulnerable to AP fire. (I say almost because you can shoot out of them... unless you're a unit with the sort of gun you'd actually care about, then you can't.)

The Warband is just kind of a weird mish-mash of Blitz Brigade and Kult of Speed - the only thing that distinguishes it is the ability to take Trukks. But Trukks are garbage, so the formation is bad. I just don't get it.

Also, is there a reason that the Stormboyz were rolled into the Warband? A separate Stormboyz formation might see them actually get some time on the field.

Kill Kroozers and Battle Kroozers are awful, but that's part of a larger Ork discussion and not specific to this list.

The Ugly
a.k.a. "What's with these options?"

As I look through the list, my most frequent thought is "Why can't I take [X] in this formation?" Some examples:

Why can I take a Gunfortress in a Blitz Brigade but not a Battlefortress? They're interchangeable literally everywhere else in Orkdom.

Why can a Fortress Mob take Flakwagons, but not Battlewagons or Gunwagons (also interchangeable everywhere)?

Why can't my Warbands switch out their Trukks for Battlewagons? (I can actually sort of see the answer to this one - because then it's just a Blitz Brigade with a different name.)

Why can't I have a number of Warbike Outriders other than 5, 10 or 15? (To put it another way, why isn't the unit simply 5 Warbikes with the option to add up to 10 Warbikes for +20 points each?) Why can't the Outriders bring Nob Bikerz with them?

Why can't I take any Grotz, anywhere?

Bonus question: Why is there not a single goddamn thing I can put in a Landa other than a Kult of Speed consisting only of Warbikes, and why would I ever want to do that?

Conclusions
A lot of the above might sound like griping, and it probably is. The thing that bothers me is not the power of the list - I feel like I can build a pretty decent army out of the Blitz Brigade, Kult of Speed and Fighta Sqwadron formations, maybe with a Fortress Mob thrown in for fun - but that there seems to be a lot of the list that's bad or pointless, or has unnecessary or bizarre choice restrictions.

Does anyone have thoughts on how I could get value out of, for example, Landas, Trukks, Battlefortresses, or a Kill-Kroozer/Battlekroozer? Do you have insight into why thematic options, like Nob Bikerz, were not added to Kults of Speed or Outriders?

Thanks!

Hi kadeton,

Just a quick message to say I'm off to work, but will come back to you on the various points raised this evening mate.

In the mean time, a lot of these 'issues' are down to how the options in the list interact with one another to prevent abuse/OTT builds.

Cheers
Reedar

Thank you - I look forward to the discussion! (There's no rush if you're busy, it's not a pressing issue, but I am curious how the list ended up in its current form.)

I'd love to hear about the OTT builds that got squashed along the way.

Wow, thanks for the impassioned post. I’ll jump in and try to answer for you some of the reasoning behind the issues you’ve raised.

You will find with all variant lists that there are several units and formations that remain the same as the main parent list. It is more general a case of what is removed rather than what is added which makes the list.

Yes and No – We’ll pick this up lower down

The Good
Brilliant, most people can’t stand them

With the options removed from the parent list you then get some benefits back in the variant.

In the UK one player has used these to great effect in two tournaments.

I’d turn up with a full army of buggies and play a ramming game against them – longer ranged shooting and better CC.
Yes the game is more focused on FF rather than CC, this has caused problems for more dedicated CC units – Howling Banshees and Khorne Berserkers for example. However we are talking about a list here that is almost fully dedicated to getting the Boyz into BtB contact.

We have to try and keep some difference between the formations and this is the case with the addition of the Nobz.

TBC

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Wow, you really don’t like them – The trukk is based off the Gorkamorka & subsequent Speed Freak trukk in 40k. It is a buggie chassis with a platform instead of a gun. Original stats had a big shooter on the front, but for the cost at that time they were too good. Try thinking along these lines, from the Ghazz warband you are sacrificing two grots for 8 units which can transport you at 35cm per move, increase the formation size and at a push be rammed into the enemy all for the same cost. This was one of the reasons why the Uge mob was upped in cost, because the formation size was so large that they were steamrollering over almost everything. Skorchas have been mentioned above, but think about this for your enemy to engage you, they have to be within 15cm. A mounted boyz or Nobz unit can have the trukk counter-charge 10cm and then the troops disembark up to 5cm and land in BtB with the enemy. They are the ideal unit. Yes, they are light vehicles, but so are the other units they are based around, but they are cheap. The big thing here is that you have to go Big & Uge if you want to really trouble your opponent, normal mobz can be fragile to say the least and I use these to only go after other small formations, like scouts.

Now, I’m going to upset people here as I don’t think that the firing from the trukk should be allowed and have dropped this from the EUK list.

Yes, the army is supposed to be a mounted force, Stormboyz can keep up but are just hopping and over a full day of Speeding would end up getting left behind.

They are more set up for tournament play, but can be used as a great shock to regular opponents once in a while.

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_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

But there are no infantry other than the Nobz upgrade in the BB so any self-respecting Mek will add more guns than have the transport capacity that isn’t needed.

Because it is then just a BB set up back to front.

Effectively yes & if you want to do that use the main list.

Problem comes here from the makeup of the Ork lists, if you go may add Outrider Bikes @ +35pts each, you let someone potentially have a massive formation of scouts that can cover the whole half of the table with their zones of control (been there tested that many years ago).

Again we are back to the SF theme, they have grots, but these are used to maintain the vehicles even in battle. You make the sacrifice to lose grotz to gain the speed. Otherwise the main list is there to include both (except trukks).

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_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Back to the point that this is mounted list, be thankful that you can put Bikes and Outriders in, some lists would bite your hand off for this ability.


As is the case for most answers it is a question of balance as to why you can’t do most things, but I hope that the above helps to answer some of your questions/thoughts.

If anyone else has questions I think that this might turn into the Speed Freak Tactics thread so please feel free to chip in.

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_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

That's awesome Tim, thanks for taking the time. I'll go over your responses in more detail when I get a chance after my game this evening.

Haha, no problem. I can always get passionate about games - the problem is getting too passionate and coming on too strong. Let me know if I do that.

I've edited some bits of your posts to add [context] and avoid multiply-nested comments.


I see what you mean, but I think you need a bit of both - some things removed, some things added. If you only remove things, you've just got a less-flexible version of the same list. I'd like to see a bit more added.


Interesting! In a list with no Expendable units, the Power Fields seem like a godsend to me - that's at least one hit that would otherwise be a kill (or two, on a transport) and an extra blast marker. Their shooting is still pretty good, and it's a full extra unit rather than a character upgrade. What's not to like?


I've wondered about that, because people generally don't seem to rate Buggies very highly. Do you take all-Skorcha and all-Buggy kults, or mix them up? What sizes do you generally run?


I think that's part of my troubles - I can get the Boyz into BtB (sometimes), but without Grots to soak the casualties, they lose fights and break unless they're picking on things that are seriously weak. Trying to get into CC also means you can't do the roadside picnic thing with your transports - you have to stay in them. When the transports are Trukks, that means lots of dead Boyz.


Surely the difference in this case is that the formation is made up entirely of Warbikes, Buggies and Skorchas? None of the other formations can offer that, and the Biker Nobz wouldn't change it.


I must admit to being biased by my exposure to modern (40k) Orks for so many years, where the Epic Battlewagon is the equivalent of a 40k Trukk, and the 40k Battlewagon (which my Speed Freeks used almost exclusively) has no real equivalent. It skews my perspective a lot. I'm also really not fond of the current transport rules being so deadly, and light vehicles just compound that by being way more vulnerable.


You're losing a unit of Nobz, two units of Boyz and the two Grotz, so your net gain is only three units and (IMO) they're far less valuable. Plus you can put the Ghaz Warband in a Landa and throw them in the enemy's face at any time, with very little risk of getting hurt on the way.


Ah, taking larger formations is great advice, and is probably what I was missing about the unit. I'm not a big fan of that kind of 'gotcha' option (where the little version sucks but the bigger versions can be awesome - Stompas are a good example in the Ghaz list) but I can appreciate the power of a mounted horde. I'm currently running my Ghaz list mounted (some Warbands in Battlewagons, others in Landas) and the combination works well, but it's far too expensive to upscale. I'll try out some bigger mobs!


How much difference does it make? Hitting on 7+ rarely produces any noticeable result for me. It does seem weird from a fluff perspective, though - surely all the Ork vehicles are open-topped, that's their thing. Apparently the game had an 'open-topped' rule at some point, but it was deprecated?


But... they're not allowed to ride in any of the vehicles, so surely they'll still get left behind? The Warband just seems like the least likely place to find them - they'd hang around with the Deathkoptas and other light/flying stuff, wouldn't they? (Like the ones in the Ghaz list do.)

Side note - Warkoptas able to transport Stormboyz would be awesome.


I can't imagine ever putting troops in a Battle Kroozer - arriving on Turn 3 (or 4, if your Space Marine opponent decides to block you with his Strike Cruiser) is just crippling. 150 points for a one-shot variable barrage that you have to aim before your opponent deploys just... doesn't do it for me.

What do they add specifically to tournament play?


Blitz Brigades can take any number of Boyz at +25 points each. That's a large part of what makes them awesome and the Ghaz version weak (though it sounds like the Warbands are even better if I can get over my hatred of Trukks).


Well, if you take a Blitz Brigade and only select Flakwagons, it already is. Plus, as noted above, you can't take Battlefortresses in a Blitz Brigade. Anyway, the costings will still provide distinction - a Blitz Brigade will be a lot of tanks and one or maybe two Fortresses, whereas a Fortress Mob will be lots of Fortresses and a few support tanks.


Fair call (though there's always the bit of my mind that goes "But what about when I want to do that and take Scout Warbikes?"). It does rather leave the Battlewagons high and dry in this list - would you ever add them to a Warband? Their main advantage is extra transport, but everyone's already got a ride - Gunwagons are otherwise superior (except shooting AP within 30cm, sure), and Flakwagons have obvious additional utility.


I'm more suggesting that you should be able to take any number of bikes between 5 and 15, not that you should be able to take more than 15. It just weirds me out that it works differently to every other Ork formation, since Orks aren't about rigid structures. Also - why no Nobz? If numbers are a problem, have the Nobz replace one of the regulars.

Also also, can't you still do the cover-the-board thing anyway? The formation isn't 0-1, so you can have as many as you like. Am I missing something?


I can accept that - I just have no idea how Orks can win assaults without them.

Like, sure - you can have a massive formation with all the Trukks and Boyz in the world, but the enemy is only ever going to get within 15cm of one of those units and allow you base contact (even then, it's quite possibly a skimmer). You might be able to inflict a couple of hits with your 6+ FF (Trukks don't even contribute), but you lost and now your unit's broken. Grots flip that situation on its head - you only got a couple of hits, but your opponent got none. Winning!


Definitely, it was very much appreciated and I've come away with some new ideas. Thanks for the input!

Interesting! When you say "after the initial assault"... Generally speaking, my Warbands are basically trashed after a single assault, and that's with Nobz to provide EA/MW attacks and Grotz to soak casualties. After that, they usually just sulk around on whatever objective their opponents were guarding, trying to avoid looking like targets. Tough CC units can take two or even three Landa Warbands to beat and break. What do you aim your Warbikes at, that they can win and still provide a valuable contribution to the game? Even a basic formation of Space Marines should mess them up pretty bad.


Very cool. I appreciate the point about Trukks counting for Mob Up, that's pretty important. I'll definitely have to try out some big Warbands and see how it works for me. I'm going to need more Skorchas...


Hmm. And then what? I'm not trying to be dense but I'm not sure how covering the board makes you auto-win. Doesn't the enemy just assault, declare you intermingled, beat the crap out of your Stormboyz and move on?


Yeah, there's a lot of lists that would be opened up just by allowing Slow & Steady spacecraft to come in on Turn 2+ instead of 3+. It's something I'd very much like to see.

Scout ZoCs seem to cause a fair few headaches in the rules. As a 'tactic' that seems a bit ridiculous.

Thanks for the explanation, though.