This is a maintenance release to fix errata from the 3.23 release.

Changes:
Imperator quake cannon should read: Quake Cannon 90cm 3bp, Macro-Weapon, Fixed Forward
Warmonger head gun should read Fixed Forward.
Support Missile fixed to read Carapace Only.

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-Vaaish

AMTL Extreme Tournament Lists

READ THIS FIRST:
The posts I am going to put in this thread are intended to be constructive. Vaaish asked for some examples of 'breaker' lists, so I am making them to show some of the more extreme lists that can be created with the AMTL list in order to give some feedback and suggestions for ways to fix them. It's surprisingly easy to start arguments online, so I'd like to ask readers to view this with an open mind regardless of which side of the debate you're on.


1) I wouldn't be making this post if I didn't think there are some exploitable issues with the AMTL list. I suspected their might be, then spent a few hours making draft lists, and now think there are potential problems.
2) I'd like it to be altered to enable opponent's to be more certain of a fun matchup, and AMTL players to be more confident that it is their skill that gives them their victories
3) I am not criticising the play testers and list writers in any way; not everyone is drawn to trying to optimise to the point of breaking lists. Thank goodness


As far as I know, the AMTL List is entirely unique in how customisable it is. Just one example, the Reaver Titan, can be armed in approximately 8,000 configurations, before adding Scout and Battle Titan upgrades, so it's probably not too unexpected that some of those might be powerful or require additional restrictions added.

The purpose of these posts are to demonstrate some of the combinations, see if there is a concensus that they might be overpowered/unbalanced or likely to give a poor impression to new Epic players who face them, and then feed back some genuine, constructive suggestions to Vaaish and his team for the list.

Cheers!

I am starting with one that I think *should* be easy to get people to agree with. I assume everyone agrees that GW had a good reason for restricting Death Strikes to 0-1 in the few imperial lists that can take the, but they're still a top inclusion if you are likely to face titans.

AMTL TITAN KILLERS 3000pts

[] Reaver BTS
10 BP Disrupt Barrage Missile, DeathStrike, DeathStrike

[] Reaver
DeathStrike, DeathStrike, Laser Burner

[] Reaver
DeathStrike, DeathStrike, Laser Burner

[] Warhound

[] Sentinels

[] Sentinels

[] Warhound

Playtest vs: Other Titan lists, WE lists, DeathKorpsof Krieg.

(the above is extreme but an actual playable list with objective scorers; to really tailor vs Titans the AMTL can take 9 Death Strikes in one list (4 reavers, with a 25pt surcharge on the BTS to take 3 while the other 3 take 2 each and a laser burner))

AMTL SHOCK AND AWE 3000pts

This looks like an absolutely horrific matchup to a lot of armies, from Guard to Orks to Tau - probably anything that starts on the table. It fires 30 BP disrupt in turn 1, 30 BP Disrupt in turn 2, and a deathstrike. In fact I'll have to check how the missile and indirect rules interact - it might be able to fire up to 60 Blast points of Disrupt in turn one for a nice quick game

[] Reaver BTS
10 BP Disrupt Barrage Missile, 10 BP Disrupt Barrage Missile, DeathStrike

[] Reaver
10 BP Disrupt Barrage Missile, 10 BP Disrupt Barrage Missile, Laser Burner

[] Reaver
10 BP Disrupt Barrage Missile, 10 BP Disrupt Barrage Missile, Laser Burner

[] Warhound

[] Sentinels

[] Sentinels

[] Warhound

Playtest vs: Orks, Steel Legion, Tau, Eldar, any non-airborne army

AMTL SUPER-WARHOUND SPAM

AMTL can take super-warhounds (300pts to either take double Plasma Blastguns, or 300pts to upgrade the 45cm AT5+/AP3+ vulcan to the 60cm AT3+/AP5+ Turbo laser destructor), meaning they have the best Warhounds in the game and can take more than any other list.

Unlike the lists above, this one may or may not be a problem depending on your view on Warhounds. I've tried to make it a realistic, balanced list with an expensive Break the Spirit that can hold the Blitz but can still contribute massive damage vs hiding units. It has built in AA and a scout screen. Thunderbolts add some additional AA.
Next there's the midfield reaver with some assault ability and up to 12 MW2+ 75cm shots.

Reaver [825]
Legate Supreme Commander
10 BP Disrupt Barrage Missile, 10 BP Disrupt Barrage Missile, Laser Burner (FF+2, CC+4)
Carapace Multilasers 2x AP5/AT6/AA5

Reaver [725]
Laser Burner (FF+2, CC+4)
Plasma Destructor, Plasma Destructor (12x MW2+ 75cm Slow)

Warhound [300]
2x Plasma Blastgun 2x Plasma Blastgun

Warhound [300]
2x Plasma Blastgun, Turbo-Laser Destructor

Warhound [300]
2x Plasma Blastgun, Turbo-Laser Destructor

Warhound [300]
2x Plasma Blastgun, Turbo-Laser Destructor

2 Thunderbolts [150]
4 Sentinels [100]

Playtest vs: Anything; it has light AA but is really a take-all-comers

I've a few more, but that'll do for a start to the discussion.

Of the three, I think the titan killer list is the one most likely to score BTS immediately, but SHOCK AND AWE is the most likely to break the actual opponent's spirit
Assuming they are limited to firing 10 BP each per turn, that's 3 templates of disrupt with two extra blast markers each. The first reaver breaks units, the others wipe them with disrupt.
If they can actually fire both missiles at once - well the charts don't go that high

Those lists are .. somewhat intimidating, yes.

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I can see where you are coming from Matt and I'll be honest I don't think that you have gone with the worst builds yet.

I'll agree that the anti WE list is anti WE and the barrage list is brutal, but in my experience I seem to come up against the wrong type of army whenever I tailor my lists.

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Hmmm, food for thought!

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Thanks Matt, definitely food for thought. I have reservations on the effectiveness personally of several of these lists since I think they leave you fairly toothless when you take into consideration spacing out units and getting them in cover but that shouldn't stop us from putting them on the field.

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-Vaaish

Does the army list let you field a 12 activation army at 3000 points? So 2x reaver, 4 x warhound, 6 x support? Or is the support intended to be against battle titans only?

I see you can manage 1 warlord, 2 reavers & 4 single warhounds.

And the emperor titan option looks interesting, could probably always fight for draw if the shooting isn't lucky.

Just checked, and as written it does allow for this. Not sure this was the intent though since it comes from back when Ben reorganized the list. I think the only combination you could pull it off with is a bunch of sentinels though.

_________________
-Vaaish

Yes 750 points for upgrades and activations. Still lets you stall before committing titans.

And that doesn't allow for any heavier weapons on the titans either. 10 activations is more likely with 4 of them being sentinels and 1 thunderbolt squadron.

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I have played a 10 activation list several times, even in a tournament, and that takes away the abiluty to fully kit out the titans.

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