That is how its always been played in UK tournaments, only 1 person ive come across has played it differently.

As the AC moves through the flak zone suppression is worked out continually, as normal back-front. So flying over a formation it will very often be suppressed at some point.

I'd say this regularily comes up, particularily during disengagement. At britcon I'd say 4/6 games at least once flying in and 5/6 disengaging

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I always bring aircraft to EUK tournaments, often lander-heavy armies of one sort or another.

Have never encountered someone who objected to me playing it "dynamically", on the grounds that suppression angle should be based only on my final position after moving, or my board edge exit position after making a disengagement move.

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In your opinion, as can be seen in this thread many people play it differently - as the AC flies its route continuously measure for suppression (using the normal front-back BM rules) as the aircraft goes through flak arcs. The most common-sense and KISS method - not that hydra can't shoot you as the positioning where you are now, not when you were in range of it, means it is suppressed. Which is nonsensical

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The interpretation of one word in the rules may hold the key to how this rule is viewed.



Is resolved meant as "work everything out" (suppression etc) when the aircraft has reached the exit point or "roll the dice" (make the attacks).

I was taught to work everything out as the AC moves and roll at the end of the move, for me this backs that up.

I read this as you work out the attacks as the AC moves and make the attacks at the end of the approach move or disengagement move.

I think we will too...

Unless there is any support for a rewrite house rule - i'd suggest in the spirit of KISS :

1. AA fire is worked out as soon as a A/C enters a[each] flak bubble.

2. All units are counted as same range as the flak range. After all they are not actually firing at the A/C - they are there to protect the flak gun from suppression due to ground attacks. Therefore to measure the range of its small arms is bonkers imho. This helps avoid unfair disadvantage of short range troops as IJWW has pointed out.

3. Always count the "back" of the formation as the side furthest away from the enemy table edge - after all this is where all enemy A/Cs are coming from and attempting to return to - therefore the AA would be deployed with that expectation.

Its an abstract system i grant you, but significantly less so imho than the RAW. Flak can now be suppressed but not too easily and at least everyone knows where they stand and the game won't descend into gamey A/C positioning and if applied to both sides then should be fair.

And yes - AC should have to stay in formation/coherency. Hasn't anyone seen top gun ?

[I've just written this off the cuff so may be a glaring problem with this that i haven't seen.]

I'm a complete noob, I haven't even got a game under my belt yet to so I've been reading this with interest. I don't want to go rocking the boat just for the sake of it but to be honest I'm not convinced suppression was intended to operate at all in these circumstances.

Out of all of this it seems most dumb to be able to count units that can't even take a shot as eligible for suppression. Considering they have to have lof and be in range i don't think it's too big a jump to assume they also have to be able to fire. Flak attacks are obviously a special case in most regards; they happen out of sequence, they can fire multiple times and they don't affect overwatch status.

Would it be game breaking to ignore suppression rules for ground attacks and instead rely on finding paths through the flak bubble or superior numbers? I'm honestly interested to know.

This is exactly what we have been doing for a while (through mistaken remembering of the rules.) To be honest it wasn't really a problem except for Eldar who became invincible from the air - hence my original question.

[Though we weren't spamming flak units which would be a possibility.]

Like you we (my group) are all fairly new players and agree this is a silly situation in an otherwise great game and needs sorting out. Suppression is needed (imho) but it needs to be simple - hence my proposed house rule.

I can recollect lots of times playing like that, and I haven't even been to all that many tournaments. Conversely, I have never seen anyone try to do it any other way. I distinctly remember a game with Dave T in Mansfield which involved several occurrences of his aircraft having to make careful manoeuvres so as to avoid unsuppressed flak.

What's even stranger is that yourself and JTG don't actually agree with each other. You're free to have your opinions obviously, but what I can't accept is when you guys both keep referring to it as "RAW", whereas I think it is quite clearly not Written. I can be a stickler for the rules, tend to parse their grammar accurately and without assumptions. So if what you are saying were RAW, I would probably be first in line behind you. In this case though, I just don't think it stacks up. Sure, the rules do not explicitly state when the suppression test is made, but you and JTG are both making big (and different) assumptions about what the default should be.

In my mind, units eligible to shoot are those that:

have LOS
are in range
are not suppressed

I see no reason to determine the state of those three things at different times. It is just as valid to tie suppression to when range is established as it is to tie it to when attacks are made.

In fact, if you want to get down to it, the rules do not state that flak attacks can be suppressed at all. The aerospace rules make no mention of it, whereas they do address how range and LoS are handled. Note I am not suggesting that we shouldn't be using suppression, only that there is no absolute answer about how it should be handled.

Given all of this, I think this is one of the few situations where I think an FAQ has some latitude to make a ruling in the favour of the spirit of the rules and/or ease of use (as opposed to the "least wrong according to the RAW" which is what I think it should aim towards). To that end, I find both of the "end of move" mechanics to be very clunky and in contravention to the stated intention of the rules: i.e.:


I think the interpretation that makes the fewest assumptions, is easiest to play, most intuitive, is most in line with "reality" and follows the spirit of the rules is to determine whether a unit can fire as the aircraft moves. If you fly into range of an unsupressed flak unit, you can be shot at. Simple, and it makes sense (to me, naturally!).

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Yes I think that's about the crux of it. Likewise the ambiguous "when the attack is made" phrase.
It seems most people do the same.

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I have only done a few games, none with AC. I am failing to see why small arms or Infact ANY weapon that isn't AA matters? Can any unit chuck up flak, but only units with AA actually HIT AC?

And if any unit can chuck up flak, I take it the it means passing over any formation would cause you to jink?

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It's because for a unit to be eligable for supression only one condition has to be met - it has to be in range. It does not need to be capable of damaging the unit being fired at. It does not even need to be able to shoot (e.g. expended OS weapons and recharging Slow Firing weapons). Therefore non-AA weapons are eligable for suppression in AA attacks.

There's an FAQ to this effect somewhere, but I'm feeling lazy.

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again, Ginger and Hena, you are missing a very key part of the rules.

It specifically says that "Ground units that are armed with aa weapons can shoot at enemy aircraft as they move past them."

this is a rule in the AA weapon section. It applies to AA units based on rule location, and also, because it SAYS THAT IT APPLIES TO AA UNITS RIGHT THERE IN THE RULES.
it does not apply to units without AA weapons, if it did, the rules would not need to have specified AA weapons in them (and in fact, could not have done so)

A unit with an AA weapon can shoot as they move past them.
Other units may not.

so, while the AA weapon is allowed to consider the aircraft to be in range even if it no longer is, the same is EXPLICITLY NOT TRUE of any other weapon.

Shooting at the aircraft is resolved at the end of its movement. the AA weapon has a special rule that allows it to shoot even if it is no longer in range. regular weapons do not have this special rule, and cannot. Thus, supression (that is resolved when shooting at the unit: ie: At the end of its movement) is calculated using the final placement of the aircraft for working out direction of suppression. It is also used as the range for working out supression on non AA units, but not for AA units, because they have a special rule.
which applies only to them.
not to everyone.

now, if you want the rules not to occur that way (and i believe most of us do) then the rules need to change
but the rules, as written, are pretty bloody clear on this subject, regardless of how wrong you and/or all your chums have been playing it all these years.

If the rules did not say the bit in bold, then supression would "work" as you suggest.
but it does, so they do not.

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This is how we have always played it.
It seems that the majority play it this way (or want to play it this way).

It would seem an FAQ is needed to confirm this.
Fortunately, I'm in a position to sort that out.

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