From this thread:
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Raptors (Chapter Master Lias Issodon): Exchanges "Combat Tactics" for "Stealth"
Stealth gives +1 on Cover Saves in Wh40k.

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Ok, I have done a bit of cutting and editing on the original list

my vision here is small flexible units working their way to key locations near the enemies advance, pinning their advance and isolating units for a stronger force to overwhelm quickly, the main force needs to have a method of deploying rapidly to the table and redeploying once the job is done to hit the next target.

I have included a specific rule to aid with planetfall

armoured vehicle access has been scaled back requiring transports to land them into the hear of battle making them more costly to use, also i imagine space being at a premium in a drop so while land raiders are still available they can only be taken as transports.

local forces has been left in for now - part of the raptors way of using what is available to them, i feel it fits well with the guard drawing the enemy on to be hit hard by a smal elite company of raptors striking from unexpected angles.

dont worry about the other pages on the document they are for our game tonight playing around with necrons

Thanks for all the constructive comments so far, its all appreciated. please take a look at the alterations made above and give me your thoughts.

one thing I will say is I definately want to keep the armoured vehicles in their. the transporter gives them the ability to land heavy armour where neccesary to support - something real world special forces would do if able eg British paratroops in ww2 landing Tetrarch tanks,

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Epic TOEG mostly done
Terrain log
1/25 dark future

hmmm.

the scout beacons rule will certainly encourage use of scouts in the ambush role, which is probably sensible.

'the all others must planetfall' rule seems a bit restrictive. It means a battle barge must be taken, so the game won't start till the second turn, potentially leaving your ambushers in a vulnerable position. maybe that's cinematic. not sure.

recruiting IG from their list is a horrendous way to go. heck, I could sneak a titan in that way, or a bunch of superheavy tanks ect. decide what sort of local forces you want to join the tabletop, and include them as formations in the list. self contained is much more stable.
(do the IG have to drop in too? or are you trying to represent the raptors coming to the rescue of an outmatched garrison?)

i think 'd echo the idea of raptor pattern rhinos ect with the 'walker' rule. again you've got that 'nam flavour.

(when will anyone ever do a list based on the Vietcong?)

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"Jungle Warfare, Hit-and-Run-Tactics, Infiltration, Ambush and Sabotage"

Quoted from Lexicanum, these are supposedly the Raptors' doctrine so you seem to have made a good start to that ideology. They are also founded off the Raven Guard so maybe have a look at Neal Hunt's list and see if there are any aspects you might be able to use in the Raptors list to good effect concerning drops etc.

Like has been mentioned, focusing of the list will be good.
There's a few points that others have already made that I agree with and you've already adjusted for, but here's a few more:

Ambush Special rule - Also, I could see 1 formation/1000 points myself to really push the focus but perhaps remove the Garrisons rule???. Also, maybe add a point that says "outside the opponent's deployment zone???" Seems a bit fairer.
Mission Deployment - unecessary really, as it's essentially covered in the Ambush and Space Marine Transports rule. It just adds clutter to the list.
Mission Package - It does sound cool but I can't see why just plain old "Land Speeders" couldn't work as the list entry. It's less confusing/cluttered to the opponent when something is just plainly written.
Local Support - If you're going to go with these guys maybe focus them more again using a Deathworld/Catachan unit type for flavour? I'm not keen on the heavy weapons support for the IG. The guard shouldn't be armed to the teeth if they're just "bait." I like SK's idea of using the Catachan special rule- at least as a trial rule but you already have 3 special rules so let's not go overboard just yet. Having the IG infantry support as basic should probably be tried first.
Surgical Strike - Undecided on this one, personally. Also, why 6cm? Seems an odd number other than to avoid an intermingling issue.
Strike Hard and Fast - Personally, I don't think this is necessary. Jungle warfare forces don't have to be deployed by air insertion. Try it without first would be my view.

Yes it is a bit cinematic but their is also the choice to use thunderhawks and stormravens to transport from reserve, the main reason for this rule is to make the tactics used fit with the Raptors and their parent chapter the raven guards style of hitting hard and redeploying as in the Taros campaign and the raid on Kastorel Novem where scouts would guide in thunderhawks and transporters bringin marines and heavy armour directly into battle before pulling back to their transports to redeploy. The rule may actually be unnecesary as the options are in the list to fight this way although it makes them feel a bit more unique.



To be honest I wanted to allow for the Raptors working closely with other imperial forces which is in their fluff something they are well known for. The limit of 1/3 points being spent should limit what can be included for example in a 3k army list, 1000 can be spent on imperial guard, the imperial guard list then limits you to 1/3 (or 333 points) for war engines and aircraft. Your right you could sneak in a warhound or a super heavy and to be honest I would not be worried by this as most marine armies can include a couple of warhounds or heavier titans anyway. Also I wanted to leave this as open as possible to fit peoples collections

I would see the imperial guard deploying as normal, maybe garrisoning as well - im thinking that the imperial guard would setup as normal only the Raptors are affected by their rules



To be Honest I am trying to hold back from focusing too closeley on jungle warfare as it would require alteration to units to take into account dozerblades booby traps etc that are more in place with games like 40k and future war in my mind, at the scale of game some rules are lost like the Rhino repair roles for immobilisation

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Epic TOEG mostly done
Terrain log
1/25 dark future

Thank you everyone for your advice on this list so far, its really getting me focused from the point I started at.

Made a few more changes

Ambush Special Rule - 1 formation per 1000 points and also must deploy outside of the enemy deployment zone

Garrisons - restricted to scout forces to represent setting up ambushes in front of the enemies expected advance, also local forces can garrison as normal or by restrictions from their own list

Mission Package/Mission Deployment - removed from list, options for vehicles and landspeeder upgrades are included based on standard text in other SM Lists

Local Support - I have not altered this mainly to allow people to use what they have in their collection, also while Raptors are known for jungle warfare they are also known for fighting anywhere with similar tactics eg Taros campaign. Local forces should be selected as a seperate list which I think needs to be made clear in the list. this means a 3000pt game would limit them to 1000pts, when picking them you are limited further by their list to 1/3 (333pts) in warengines and aircraft - it just feels right at the minute to me that whatever is available is requisitioned

Surgical Strike - I have left this in for now as the forward ambush units should be able to guide in the main force to the target I also wanted to restrict the range at which planetfall doesnt scatter as to not give the army too big an advantage, the 6 cm range is a bit arbitary to allow some room to deploy my thought was to keep the range within the area that would make up a 40k battlefield (firefight range)

Strike Hard and Fast - what I have in my mind is more to do with the raptors hit and run tactics and draws from the Taros campaign information also the Raven guard operation on Kastorel Novem, rather than focus on jungle warfare it is aimed at setting up clever ambush locations you expect the enemy to approach and then delivering an overwhelming force to a small part of the enemy before redeploying to do the same elsewhere

I'm hoping to get a game in today with the rules and any further changes. please keep the feedback coming and if you get a chance give em a try

at the minute I hope at least that it will give an enjoyable game thats a bit different


after this gets to a workable list I as planning on doing something based on this with chaos cultists

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Epic TOEG mostly done
Terrain log
1/25 dark future

i'd think my Tanith list is pretty VCish in the sense that its an ambush light-infantry force...

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Just tried a 3k game against necrons

worked well with ambush units holding up or suprising units moving towards objectives and managed to hold in cover until turn 2 planetfall suport arrived

tactical detachment
lascannon tarantula
ambushing unit

scout unit
2 heavy bolter tarantula
ambushing

4 stormravens

2 detachments of devastators
2 hellfire dreads each
deploy from storm ravens

tactical detachment
librarian
2 rhinos
1 prometheus
deploying from 2 thunderhawk transporters

tactical detachment
deploying by drop pod

5 landspeeders deployed in deployment zone

strike cruiser
arrival turn 2
Necrons

2 destroyer formations
deployed on table

warrior detachment with 2 spyders
deployed on table

2 pylons
teleport deployment

monolith and 2 obelisks
teleport

monolith and 2 obelisks
teleport

warrior formation with 2 spyders
reserve

immortal formation with 2 spyders
reserve

6 heavy destroyers
reserve

turn 1
necron left flank
ambushes sprung by destroyers sweeping into range, monolith teleports in portals in warriors and tactical formation defeats warriors in cc causing phase out

necron centre
destroyers move double to attack landspeeders deployed opposite

necron right flank
warrior detachment move into buildings around blitzkrieg objective come under fire from scouts ambushng

turn 2

necron left flank
librarians detachment lands and fores on destroyers forcing phase out, another monolith teleports to seize objective in sm side opposite
stormravens land devastators around new monolith fire from storm ravens forces phase out, initiative siezed and first devastators force 2nd monolith to phase out.
pylon phase in near sm side objective and takes out a storm raven

necron centre
pylon teleports in to support destroyers and is damaged by plotted orbital bombardment then knocked out by landspeeders
destroyers move to right flank to support against scouts

necron right flank
scouts broken by destroyer fire, tactical formation lands by drop pod and breaks destroyers causing hase out

turn 3
necron left flank
monolith teleports in near librarian and causes 1 casulaty return fire phases it out, devastator formation double move onto third necron side objective

necron right flank
tactical formation phases out warriors, initiative seized and scout grab blitzkrieg objective

necron centre

storm raven rockets take out pylon monolith phases in and then is destroyed by devastators

we both had a good game although i think the marines had a lot of luck and the necrons had a lot of bad luck with activation rolls to bring on reserves

after playing the list the strike hard and fast rule is unnecesary and when picking an army i realised the wording stopped the use of landspeeders which would be used in a mobile army

if anyone else has given the list a try please let me know what you think

_________________
Epic TOEG mostly done
Terrain log
1/25 dark future

Have you looked at Neal Hunts Raven Guard list. From your description it is pretty much what you want this list to be and has had some pretty extensive testing. It achieves your aims through restrictive force selection without the need for special rules. It is a very good balanced list with only a few problems.

I suggest you give it a few games and get in contact with neal hunt to give him your ideas before continuing on with your list. There is no need to have two lists attempting to create basically the same feel. I think we should attempt to amalgamate the ideas rather than dilute play testing.

Sorry for the late report back on this (not going to post a turn by turn 'cause I am lazy and don't have time ATM) but will give some first impressions.

1: I will second Jstr19's note that this has some similarities to the Raven Guard list though IMO that is not really a bad thing.

2: I like the way the ambush rule works (wiped out a whole flank of the opponents guardians right at the start ). Feels right and should really be the focus of this list. I might even go one further and make it compulsory as if you're doing a Raptor Chapter stand up and fight force, you should just use the Raven Guard list. As has been pointed out repeatedly, you are NOT making a list for a specific chapter but a list for a play-style that is EPITOMIZED by the eponymous Astartes chapter from the title. This means I can lay my Minatours (which is what I used) in that style with this list.

3: "up to 1 support formation may be purchased per Raptor ambush being used, these units are deployed with but not as part of the formation"
I see what you are attempting here so I don't drop a whole ass load of land raiders in the ambush but I think this is a bit overly restrictive. I think the demi company upgrade should be allowed in to give it a bit more bite. Hard(er) to abuse due to it only being 2 stands of devs.

4: Local Forces is patently broken. Sorry mate. You cannot ever hope to create a balanced list for the Raptors list by saying, "take 1/3 your points from another IG list". What, you're going to play test every permutation of list out there that exists and will ever exist? Insanity pure and simple. You state you did this to allow use of what people have in their collection. So what? There are a core set of ubiquitous IG units (guardsmen, chimeras, heavy support squad, lemon russles, and hellhounds) that are present in every IG list out there and anyone that collects is going to have. This is not going to affect me using my existing guard (or I should say my glacially slow progress on my new guard for ToEG ). Pick a basic IG formation with a few upgrades and call it kosher (start with SL basic formations as that's the OG of IG lists . If someone wants to play some mixed Imperial force with all the big stuff then they should probably leverage the Saranes Expanse Imperial Crusade list instead.

5. "All raptor units not deploying by Raptor Ambush must enter play by Planetfall or by transport from reserve"
I'll admit we just ignored this. Dont feel it adds anything personally but hey, that's just my personal opinion.

6. Still think you should think about moving Land Raiders from core into upgrades to better represent the light ambushing force feel. To balance I think the Wrath of God detachment / Forward Spotter unit should be allowed to be taken. Again, I am in no way an expert so YMMV.

All in all this was fun and I like where this is going! Keep it up!

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glad you liked it.

I've been looking at the ravenguard list and playing around with the idea for the raptor list.

The special rules for Ambush and the lack of assault troops makes it a different style to play.
the accuracy of their planetfall units in range of scouts may be a bit much and I think changing it to allow reroll to planetfalls targeted within a set range of scouts would be better and not give to great an advantage.

focusing more on the ambush side of the force, make tactical, scout, landspeeders and devastators standard detachments, move armoured vehcles to support formation max 2 per detachment.

remove local forces, tbh the games I have played so far it never got used anyway and Jimmy is right about balancing.

the original support formations max 1 per ambush unit was meant to refer to tarrantulas and hyperios platforms and was badly worded, these I think can be moved to an upgrade spot.

Ill try to get an edit posted over the weekend

any other changes reccomended will be appreciated.

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Epic TOEG mostly done
Terrain log
1/25 dark future

Thanks for writing it. You've inspired me to create something myself though of course I have the original creativity of a dead squirrel We need more stuff like this to keep the hobby fresh and alive.


Agreed.


Very Raven Guardish of you. I aprrove.


In fact that's exactly what i played (it was a SMALL game admitedly) and it felt good. I dont know how this will play in a larger game.


I actually liked it and took guard in chimeras with a couple of russ's ala Steel Legion style. Thinking that removing is overkill. Just limit it to explicit formation types. In addition I'd remove the 1/3 points rule and base it on the # Raptor formations.

Core (0 or 1 IG formations can be taken per 2 Raptor formations)
Infantry Company
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 6 Imperial Guard Infantry units
125 points

Mechanised Infantry Company
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit, 6 Imperial Guard Infantry units plus
4 Chimeras (1 for Commander)
200 points

Upgrades (0-2 upgrades may be taken per IG formation)
Artillery Battery
3 units of the same type chosen from the following list: Basilisk, Bombard, Manticore
+250 points

Sentinel Squadron
4 Sentinels
+100 points

Tank Squadron
Add 3 Leman Russ MBT
+175 point

In addition we should play with a rule about IG being cannon fodder/bait. The raptors shouldn't care if they break in an assault and do not take a BM per 1.12.8.


Ahh gotcha

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Limiting it to set formations sounds good and fits with the fluff for Raptors.

Possible idea - include them in support formations, working on the steel legion units above maybe instead of restricting the numbers based on detachments change the list to show the raptors being a lightly equipped force mentioned earlier and remove corresponding marine units eg no whirlwinds but include IG artillery.

we could add expendable to the guard, on the other hand the Raptors info I have read says they work closely with available forces and I am wondering if leaving it effecting the marines could be representative of them seeing how the battle is going and withdrawing rather than effecting actual morale?

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Epic TOEG mostly done
Terrain log
1/25 dark future

I would be hesitant, if not totally against, including IG artillery.

As I mentioned, if you have to put these guys in they should be base-bottom infantry troops without massive support options. That way they don't become a suped-up Saranes-cum-Ravenguard list. They shouldn't be the focus, more a flavour....

Also, I'm not keen on the idea of Expendable for IG units. It's a pretty strong ability when you're discussing Marine armies.

Agreed. if allows, and this is a big if, then something super small like 1 arty upgrade per formation. Arty should be WWs.


Think guardsmen, chimeras, and maybe a Russ, that's about it.


In review I agree with you though for different reasons. I dont feel this is that powerful and hard to game the system with as opposed to as Garben sates, doesn't fit their fluff. They're "good guy" astartes. Leave that type of ruthlessness to an inquisitorial list or for Red Scorpions (ala IA: 4).

Think that scouts should be bumped up to a larger standard formation. something like 6 stands for 225

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