I would just note that Rhinos aren't exclusive to the elite forces of the Imperium. It's Land Raiders that are exclusive.

I'd happily remove Rhinos entirely, and leave us only with Gorgons as the only transporters.

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+1 for just gorgons, would a gorgon with AA rather than transport be justifiable too?

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I vote to keep Rhinos (or at least some other small transport), but that's for entirely selfish reasons - I've just started painting an AdMech force, and the little old rhinos are in plentiful supply. I've even made up fluff as to why that should be so:

http://sdahl.net/node/131

I can see the point of making the AdMech distinct, but without the Rhinos, the only remaining fast objective-grabbers are Warhounds. I for one would prefer it to be viable to field an AdMech force without Titans.

Same here, what about if Rhinos were dropped but a fast infantry type introduced? There's evidence for all sorts of oddball creations on tracks, spider legs, wheels and with extra long legs in titanicus which can keep up with a titan at full stride. Is that possibly an idea? Although they'd have to be limited, overcosted or handicapped in some way so that they remain fairly scarce in an other wise slow force.



My thinking behind breaking with what's traditionaly seen in 40k was simply that the skitarii have never been all that fleshed out by games workshop (at least to the level we'd all like) and in that absence of information our creativity can flourish. 40k players trying to make their transports different are using those models because they are constrained by what GW will allow in a shop or tourney and the rules they have to play with. Epic doesn't have any of those constraints upon it thanks to GW's negligence, ask any admech 40k player and I'm sure he'd say he'd be over the moon with getting a dedicated admech list or model range rather than having to suffice with a set of rules written for another army and making compromises to fit the feel of admech. As a community we're writing those rules for epic (well technically E&C is but you get my drift) and my view is we should make the most of that freedom.

I guess ultimately it comes down to how prepared people are to explore the greay areas of the 40k universe fluff.

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Not that expect / intend to have any influence on the list - (i'm keeping an eye on this forum cos i think i may put together an Ad Mech army next ) just my random late night thoughts...

When i started looking at putting together my guard army i was originally thinking of painting them up in a Ad Mech/Forgeworld scheme because i was planning to use SM1 landraders as my APCs - perhaps it memories of the old old days when IG could field LRs (ie before the leman russ kit in 40k) but i see since then the Emperor has made some deathbed decree or other (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Raider :-) To me the hulky WW1 feel still has more to do stylistically with the IG/Ad Mech than the new sleeker marine tanks - plus they're noticeably smaller. I changed to a generic guard urban scheme when i realised the chimeras were out of the Admech list.

That said - i always think theirs a slight inconstancy in the fluff and my own perception. Ad Mech are supposed to be hunting down the dark age STCs - ie the most advanced tech ever invented - but tend to get modeled/drawn with the most clunky "frankensteiny" machinery. Leaving the marines and IG the sleeker stuff (rhinos, Mk3 LRs, valkyres, etc...)

Anyway, the mk1s work as chimera proxy from a far away forgeworld for me, but i'm odd. None of my mates agree either ! :-)

On the contrary I vote for removing Gorgons from the list - the newer Forge World background for Gorgons is very clear that they are specialised trench-warfare units, used only for carefully selected missions in this sort of siege warfare to transport troops over a short distance. They are not generic heavy transports and are described as a very poor choice for fighting on a normal open battle so they are not used for such. Since the Ad-Mech list isn’t a siege specific list I think it needs to loose them. I don't really care that back in the SM/TL era Tech Guard could take them as those many choices are very out of date now and there were other things Tech Guard had access to then that we've sensibly got rid of.

I reckon ATML should have access to Chimeras and either Storm Lords (unlike E&C I see the IG Superheavies as being very appropriate in the Ad-Mech list) or possibly Crassus Armoured Transports (depending what the background for them proves to be).

Gorgons could then be the default transport for the Ordo Reductor (the specialised Ad-Mech siege regiment) only.

In theory, Admech can have whatever units they want since they are the ones making them. In practice, the list needs to feel different from IG or why not just play Red IG. I still think that some kind of speed boost on the minorus or at least a modified transport version of the minorus would be perfect for AdMech. I think this could work because a) the minorus is pretty numerous b) it can take the Corvus pod c) it can upgrade infantry already. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that the AdMech could make a faster transport minorus.

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-Vaaish

Granted, I just think different infantry stats/types/formation sizes plus characters and support units could make the list plenty different enough from IG, despite them having Chimera transports.

Ordinatus Minoris are an invented unit for the epic list, but I'd still rather they were unique as larger ordinatus are and fairly rare for the Ad-Mech rather than than being common or their default transport.

The thing is, the little admech fluff we do have has one minourus with every infantry company or something similar. That points to them being quite common and not invented for epic at all. The Majoris is a different story entirely though.

I just don't see infantry stat changes as being enough to make it play differently with the other 90% of the list plays the same. At that point the only time anything changes is when you get out of the chimeras anything else and it feels just about the same.

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-Vaaish

Where was the reference to Minoris in the background? I could be wrong but I've always thought they were an epic invention.

Ok scratch the above - after doing a bit of googling I see they featured in the Black Library novel Dark Apostle, with some info about them here.

I have been following this 'sub forum' because I'm getting ready to paint up some ATML forces.
All I can say after reading through posts, is I'm glad I choose to play Epic 3rd ed.

I don't say that to offend. But the main reason (other than simplicity and getting too old to remember too many rules) I probably play Epic 3rd edition rather than E:A is because of it's 'generic' nature.

The specific 'army list' nature of E:A annoys me to no end. In my opinion, it really limits the whole scope of what Epic is all about.

Army lists can be great for campaigns, scenarios, and marketing scams that never came to fruition, but for a game with Epic's sweep and scale more generic options from the community would perhaps be more inviting for all players.

As E&C explained to me in another thread, this Skitarii list isn't exclusive, it just represents one Forgeworlds Skitarii.

Forgeworlds could equip their 'personal' army with whatever equipment they make at their 'forges', in addition to 'exotics' they keep to themselves.
Thus, pretty much all STC IG vehicals would be present in one form or another. With the addition of some wild ancient/xenos 'toys', and the minoris, knights, etc.

Fluff wise, what perhaps could add some additional 'character' to ATML is that the armor crews sometimes are 'hardwired' into the vehicals in much the same way Titan crews plug into their machine. Couldn't this be accounted for by increasing capability and cost of units?

Since the vast majority are playing E:A, and E:A was set up from the get go to have specific army lists, wouldn't it follow these Skitarii would have everything they make, for example a range of IG seige transports-not just Gorgons. And siege Leman Russ variants (with plugged in crew 'bonus') etc. With something experimental, deadly, and perhaps not quite reliable thrown in (Hellbore, mole mortars, etc.)

Westside, the thing is most of us don't want to have everything play the same just have different looking models on teh table. Specific army lists don't limit the scope of Epic, they just ensure that there is more than superficial differences when playing a faction. The thing here is that just because in theory a forgeworld CAN have access to anything used by Imperial forces doesn't mean that in the interest of making the list interesting to play as and against they SHOULD have access to all of that.

What I believe this amounts to is that the list as it was originally allowed you to make a list almost identical to a steel legion list which begs the question of why bother with a skitarii list at all. Since most of the IG style choices are proven and fairly solid, it seemed that few lists used any of the more interesting AdMech choices in favor of more traditional ones.

The recent incarnations of the list seems to have helped make the skitarii a good bit different but they've also reduced or removed most of the choices from IG. Of course, part of the problem with some of the more iconic Skitarii units is there aren't models or the models are quite rare. That has a tendency to make people move toward choices that are easier to pick up as well.

In the end we should be aiming for what makes the list the most fun and fluffy. If that means giving back chimeras and hydras, them so be it. However, I think that some of the best changes so far were the removal of the superheavies, most of the russ variants and the artillery. Those changes have done a huge amount to break from the IG mold and put emphasis on the minorus since it can easily be configured to take on the roles of the superheavies and artillery which gives a nice flavor to the look of the army as a whole.

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-Vaaish

Nope - minoris are not invented for the list they are from dark apostle a current black library book which is one of the few (only?) Current depictions of a post heresy admech skitarii force. It also features gorgons as transports

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what about chimera's without turrets?

This is what I meant by "throwing the baby out with the bath water" earlier in the thread. The simple fact is that the AM make all of this stuff, and if they needed it (e.g. in the defense of a forge world), they would use it. Even with all this stuff in the list, there are plenty of things that can be done to distinguish it from the steel legion/IG. For example the AdMech have:
- different formation names and sizes
- different infantry (and more types)
- different levels of support (both orbital and allies, such as air and titans - I loved the 50% rule rather than 33%)
- Availability of more types of equipment (wider range of superheavies, heavies, and regular tanks, for example)

Right there, you have enough (IMHO) to distinguish the AM from IG more than a lot of other sister lists - for example Dark Angels and White Scars from Codex Astartes. Then you can add in things like the minoris/majoris. According to my (admittedly, perhaps subjective) reading of the fluff, both of those seem quite unique and the product of some adept's tinkering, rather than large-scale production models. Not to say they should be ultra-rare/nonexistent in a list, but it seems a little OTT to have them replace superheavies, for example.

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