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Blood Angels v2.09

 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:54 am 
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Quote:
Incorrect. Read the last line of the notes.


Quite right. Never mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:36 am 
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SK, post Heresy Tech does not mean it's not STC. Can anyone provide some Assault Cannon fluff? Genuinely curious now!

Since the Mechanicus do not make weapons or systems that are not STC-approved, the Assault Cannon must be from a STC schematic that was recovered post-heresy.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:56 am 
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Replying to Simulated Knave in the previous thread re. background on the Baal STC:
Imperial Armour 2 wrote:
Baal Predators have been in service with the Blood Angels since the earliest days of the Great Crusade. The STC Template was recovered from the ruins of the fortress of the Arch Techno Heretic Lord de Ladt...

The Imperial Armour background was (effectively) identical to an Index Astartes article on the Baal in White Dwarf when one of the Baal models came out. I'm afraid I don't have the issue number though.
Current BA Codex wrote:
The Baal Predator is a specialised varient of the Predator Design... it has been in service since the earliest days of the Great Crusade, when the Blood Angels recovered its STC...

3rd and 4th Ed Blood Angels Codexes hardly had any background at all (they were both, what, 20 pages?) and nothing on the Baal apart from a sentence in 3rd Ed mentioning it was a Predator varient with a high rate of fire.
Rug wrote:
Can anyone provide some Assault Cannon fluff? Genuinely curious now!

They were available mounted on vehicles prior to the Heresy (aside from the Baal, Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders were armed with them - see Heresy novels and the Collected Visions artwork). Background in Chaos Marine codex (not sure which one) stated that they were beginning to be introduced for Terminators either late crusade or during the Heresy itself but many prefered the more reliable Reaper Autocannon. Apparently there's a mention of them in use by Terminators in 'A Thousand Sons' as well, further suggesting they were in use by terminators before the Heresy 'proper' broke out.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:00 pm 
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If compulsory moves are bad, how should the Red Thirst and the difficulties it causes the Blood Angels (because it does cause them difficulties) be represented?

The possiblity I could think of would be a +1 to engage actions, the note that BA that can move into B2B in an engage must (or that at least half must or something), and a penalty to non-engage actions when an enemy unit was within engagement range. Or even for each enemy formation within engagement range (or within a set distance if you want to make it less subjective).

You also don't need to necessarily make armor subject to it.

Perhaps:

Red Thirst:
Blood Angel formations containing Infantry receive +1 to Engage, but a -1 penalty to other actions if the enemy is within 20cm. At least half of the Blood Angels infantry in a formation must be moved into base-to-base if possible to do so during an assault.

You could also do -1 for each enemy within 20cm, thus making it more difficult to control the BA the more enemies are around. Which I kinda like.

Quote:
3. The other idea floated around was from the Genestealer cult development and that was gain 1BM as normal. If you elect to charge after the failed roll, gain an additional BM


This could also work, though I'd recommend giving an additional BM if you don't charge. Holding them back should be harder than turning them loose.

Three replies below:

* * *

Rug:
Quote:
Is it so hard to accept that a mounted Marine company would march from A to B faster than a Mounted Guard Company? Heck, with all their guns Guard have a much longer effective striking distance!


No. But it is hard to accept that a mounted Marine company would march from A to B slower than a mounted BA company.

That's the thing. This isn't improving Marines to be better than Guard. It's improving them to be better than Guard, other Marines and Orks, and not-quite-but-close-to Eldar.

* * *
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Quote:
Since the Mechanicus do not make weapons or systems that are not STC-approved, the Assault Cannon must be from a STC schematic that was recovered post-heresy.


Two words. Power armor.

Power armor, in its varying incarnations, is not STC-approved. It is notable for not being so, in fact. Nor is Terminator Armor STC approved (at best it might be distantly related).

* * *
Red Sorceror:
Quote:
The Imperial Armour background was (effectively) identical to an Index Astartes article on the Baal in White Dwarf when one of the Baal models came out. I'm afraid I don't have the issue number though.


Fair enough. Thanks for taking the time to type it out. :)

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Last edited by Simulated Knave on Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Two words. Power armor.

Power armor, in its varying incarnations, is not STC-approved. It is notable for not being so, in fact. Nor is Terminator Armor STC approved (at best it might be distantly related).

Yes it is.

If you've read the Horus Heresy books, in one of the early books they come across another human civilisation that has a working STC machine, which makes Astartes-style power armour (Only slightly better, because they're not reconstructing from recovered fragments of STC manuals, but actually have a working STC machine).

Quote:
There are no forced moves, there are always choices.

You have just become broken, and are within 15cm of the enemy.

Only a Sith thinks is absolutes...

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:25 pm 
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If you've read the Horus Heresy books, in one of the early books they come across another human civilisation that has a working STC machine, which makes Astartes-style power armour (Only slightly better, because they're not reconstructing from recovered fragments of STC manuals, but actually have a working STC machine).


The Horus Heresy books are a Black Library product, with all the flaws that implies. I would also point out that there's eight marks of power armor out there - many of which are developments and refinements of previous ones. The Mechanicus is not entirely bound to STCs.

And in any case: Terminator Armor. And the Chimera and Leman Russ. And, IIRC, most las weapons. And presumably autoguns, though that's not saying much, since we can make autoguns. STC products are better, but the Mechanicus can create their own stuff - and do.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:35 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Quote:
If you've read the Horus Heresy books, in one of the early books they come across another human civilisation that has a working STC machine, which makes Astartes-style power armour (Only slightly better, because they're not reconstructing from recovered fragments of STC manuals, but actually have a working STC machine).


The Horus Heresy books are a Black Library product, with all the flaws that implies.

As their premiere book series (Which actually makes the best seller lists in the UK now), every single item of note in the Heresy books is vetted by the Core Studio's IP team.

Quote:
I would also point out that there's eight marks of power armor out there - many of which are developments and refinements of previous ones. The Mechanicus is not entirely bound to STCs.

Refinements based on developments as a consequence of the discovery of more efficient STC fragments, not based on experimentation and the scientific process. The Mechanicus are a religious organisation that are indeed exclusively bound to the STCs.

Quote:
And in any case: Terminator Armor. And the Chimera and Leman Russ. And, IIRC, most las weapons. And presumably autoguns, though that's not saying much, since we can make autoguns. STC products are better, but the Mechanicus can create their own stuff - and do.

Every one of those items you just listed are STC products. In the case of Terminator armour a re-purposed STC product, but still STC.

If you want to debate this further please open a new thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:54 pm 
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the Mechanicus can create their own stuff - and do.

But in order it to be approved, it has to prove that it is based on an STC design, even if the STC element only consists of fragments of old recovered designs.
Imperial Armour 1 wrote:
Tech Priests seek hidden or forgotten traces of past machines. Those that are found are replicated slavishly, but this can only happen once it is established that STC systems are present and thus the Machine God's blessing is given.

Power armour is a good example of this approach - while the Mechanicus did indeed develop various different marks of power armour, the basic technology must be based on STC designs, and then further developed by the Mechanicus, due to their religious beliefs. Which is supported by the fact similar powered armour is encountered being used by 'lost' colonies during the Great Crusade (Caliban is one example) - its not identical to the Mechanicus versions, but it uses the same underlying origninal designs derived from ancient STC.
Quote:
And the Chimera and Leman Russ.

Both quintessential STC Designs:
Imperial Armour 1 wrote:
STC Designs were large, brutish, hard to damage, easy to repair and with a high degree of standardisation betfrom one machine to another.... they are proven machines which have changed very little down the years. They also retain alot of standardised features, for example a Chimera's track links are still exactly the same as those of a Leman Russ...

also:
There are many variants on the STC Technology of the Chimera Chassis

There's also mention of Russ STC blueprints being rediscovered and giving rise to new variants of Leman Russ (e.g. the Conquerer).


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Again, can we take the background discussions about STC's to another thread please.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:37 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
BlackLegion wrote:
Well looking at the Wh40k rules as written the Red Thirst does the following:
You roll a D6 for every unit with the Red Thirst special ability (only Infantry units and Dreadnoughts have this abillity!) at the start of the game. If you roll a 1 the unit suffers from the Red Thirst.
Units suffering from the Red Thirst loose ATSKNF and gain Fearless (won't run from a lost HtH combat but suffer extra but saveable hits if they loose the HtH combat) and Furious Charge (enables them to hit more early and stronger in HtH combat but only if they charge).

Taking this into account i would make Red Thirst a special abillity (which i would give all Infantry units and Dreadnoughts) and not an army wide special rule.
This special ability could look something like this:

Red Thirst
If a formation is being assaulted units with the Red Thirst ability have to countercharge into base contact if possible. Also a formation containing units with the Red Thirst ability looses ATSKNF during Assaults but gains a +1 Assault Modifier* due to the ferocity of their assault. Also casualties suffered from the assault resolution roll can be saved as if they where generic hits.

*Variant could be that they only gain the +1 Assault Modifier if they initiate the Assault and/or have units in base contact.



Finally had time to mull over this.

Seems like a nice concept, but in practice it would mean nobody would ever take Devastators, I think.


Put them 16+cm away from enemy units and Devastators have less problems. Also you could make themcheaper. Also don't forget that Devastators can shoot quite good outside of Assaults ;)

Another idea:
If you roll Initiative for an Engage action but fail the Blood Angels formation takes a Blastmarker and gets to engage anyway but then you are forced to move as many units in base contact as possible (and within moving restrictions).

Yet another idea:
A rewording of my above porposal could be:
Red Thirst
If a formation is being assaulted the formation has to pass an Initiative test or units with the Red Thirst ability have to countercharge into base contact if possible. Also a formation containing units with the Red Thirst ability looses ATSKNF during Assaults but gains a +1 Assault Modifier due to the ferocity of their assault. Also casualties suffered from the assault resolution roll can be saved as if they where generic hits*.

* Could be replaced with: During Assaults unit with the Red Thirst ability loose ATSKNF but gain the Indomitable ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Not for the rest of the turn. Only for the current Assault.

Also you can't Air-Assault every time. Usually Space Marine armies don't field enough transport aircrafts.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:45 pm 
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Red Thirst Idea (not sure if it has been given - cannot be bothered looking:
Those with Red Thirst can counter charge 10cm and gain Infiltrate for that move.

Nothing more.

That's it from me.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.09
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:08 pm 
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Also i wouldn't put the Black Rage rule in the special rules of the army list but in the notes section of the Death Company unit as it only affects those unit.

Lucifer-Engines easily could be an army special rule:
Lucifer Engines
First implemented on the Baal Predator all Rhino hulled vehicles of the Blood Angels are now equipped with the so called Lucifer pattern engines enabeling them to considerable faster speeds than unmodified engines.
All Rhino hulled vehicles (Rhino, Razorback, Whirlwind, Vindicator and all Predator variants) of the Blood Angels gain +5cm on their first move of any given action.

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