Yep (even if I disagree   ), except for one thing: I just checked v4.1 and v3.0 core rules. Both allowed any unit on FF (save artillery) to snap fire. So snap fire was not (re-) introduced in v5.

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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.

Petty semantics but I concede the point. Doesn't change a thing however no matter when the fault appeared. We must have been house ruling it since v4 and I forgot. I'm only human and not very interested in the minutiae of every inconsequential detail.

Let me know when you'd like to tackle the points I've already made. I'll take a rain check on the history lesson.   (Just cheek, no heat).

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Hey, nice to have some rules discussions again here  

can't say I have a big problem with Snap Fire. Actually, seems to work pretty much for me.

When playing marines, Devastators on First Fire are the the only possibility to keep these pesky eldar transport flyers away from my army, since Hunters are crap. And it's more a psychological thing, since 12 x 7+ isn't as great as it sounds) I completely agree with scream, it comes with a price. In the case of landing flyers, it is still very hard to hit them due to the -2.

AA works fine as is. These weapons are very powerful even now, against flyers and titans, praetorians. Without the -2 against anything else, they would be the best artillery in the game. Think 3 Hydra detachments versus Orks... (would be fun though   )

The problem with the PD slowing down the game occured to us as well. Our house rule: only use it when charged, defensively, not when attacking

Hmm, so you admit that you use Devastators as an alternate to AA units then? Point made surely.

Ok, against the Eldar it's good (maybe too good) but really you should have bought more AA units. Are Scorpions all that the Marines get or do they have a Whirlwind Flak unit too? I forget. I've used Tarantulas for Anti Pop-Up work before, they can be pretty good.

So, Snap Fire Works against the Eldar, yeah? Well, just consider what that Snap Fire rule is doing to a slow moving foot slogging army each turn. Not only do they have to face the normal two to three turns of fire but then they have to face Snap Fire from the units they want to engage. Yes, I could buy lots of artillery to soften them up but you see I wanted to play Orks or Chaos not Imperial Guard.

Personally I don't rate Hydras that highly (12 attacks at 5+ with -1TSM) a 33% hit rate is no big deal, the range is formidable but still I'm not impressed, I'd be more nervous having my Titan Shields taken down with this than my Infantry and it's easier to shoot artillery at exposed vehicles in a three unit squad than a host of infantry in cover, BP should be considered too. Firestorms would be Anti-Tank scary though but three Fire Prisms would do almost the same except for the range and AA Snap Fire ability.

PD is Point Defence for protecting the unit from assault not for picking stuff off as it goes by. That's what the weapons with the stats are for.  

Is this what Snap Fire should really be used for or what you hope it should be for? (Anyone see what I did there? I took Screams words from the Pink Horrors argument and turned them against you. Nice eh?)

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Seems the argument that has legs here is that 15cm range for PD is possibly too much?

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

It would help but I still think some armies are being unfairly treated by this rule. Course not everyone can or does play different types of race so there will be a hard core of Ranged Army players quite happy... *dwindles off into incoherent muttering*

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

I think the easiest way to deal with PD is to restrict it to defensive use: When a unit is charged and has PD, it can fire.

Simple as that.

No hassle with "Wait, let me see if my Rhino can shoot at your Titan" or "My 20 Bikes now all roll a 7+ because they charged" anymore.

Of course that would re-set the bikes Caf back up to +3 again.  

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

My opponents and me have always used PD for defensive use and only when the unit did not had charge order.

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

My proposal:

Point Defence always First Fires despite the units orders AGAINST UNITS ATTACKING IT IN CLOSE COMBAT ONLY, so no range needed. It has a 360 arc of fire, hits on a 6+ with a -0TSM. Firing takes place in the First Fire Phase as normal.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

indeed!

At first sight, I was opposed to Caf +3 for marines bikes. I found it quite cheap in comparison to Assault Marines detachment and it's the same caf that attack bikes that's only cost +25 points. But honestly, for +25 points, why would I take some standard marine bikes ? I gain 2 25cm shots and a +1 caf...

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

The Space Marine Biker is already getting killed off. Who wants them now? If it wasn't for the Bike company and even then they still suck with a +2 Caf.

It goes against the laws of Epic. The better the ranged ability the suckier the Caf, and vise versa.

Attack Bikes should be the ones with a +2 Caf (and all those variants should get a -1 Caf-ectamy too)
Normal SM Bikes should be back at +3 Caf
SM Scout Bikes should remain at +2 Caf

Costs remain static.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Attack bikes should keep the +3 caf, they are "attack" bikes

If you place attack bikes at +2 caf, you just kill all White Scars army list. You'll need to review Attack Bikes Veteran & Veteran HQ...

Please...Leave Attack Bikes alone  

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

Attack as in Pew! Pew! Pew! Not Assault as in Yaaar! Urgh! Aieee!

Granted, I have no problems with attack bikes staying as is so long as we reverse (Assault) Bikes to +3 also. No way my SM Bikes are the same as some IG horse Cav. Peshaw!

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]