I would trade any amount of 5+ to hit attacks (even with a -1 to -2 to hit and regardless of TSM) for a chance to take down transports before the troops disembark, flyers even more so. The fact it isn't always successful is not lost on me but the amount of fire to a degree makes up for this.

Before this Snap Fire for all I had the option to remain on First Fire and trying to take down the close combat attackers one on one in the First Fire phase but with Snap Fire for all my entire army can have a shot at anything moving into sight. Seems a bit one sided. The attacker has probably already spent a turn or two getting into charge range. Daemons and Tyranids on foot even more so.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Then ... "For the Greater Good ..."      

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Nothing is more greater than my own good thank you kindly.  

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Folks, you all realise that anyone using slaaneshi forces must have the SNAP fire rule, right.
And we all know where War-Hamster's preferences lie, right?  

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Oh SNAP!

Yo! I'm strictly butter side up.

ERIK! Bro, how yah doin'!!!

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Can't argue with that ...    

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Snap firing at a Thunderhawk landing troops is -2 for normal units.  So heavy infantry will be needing 7s to hit.  A full detachment of Devestators would get one hit on average and the T-Hawk still gets a save.  Hardly an "autokill" situation.  And there are presumably a lot of tanks/infantry or the odd titan who are now happy the Devestators cant shoot at them.

I remember back in the day when the Thunderhawk was untouchable, and yes it was way fun if you were playing Marines or Chaos, but it certainly wasn't fair or balanced.  And yes, I agree now it is fairly difficult to land your fragile transport unscathed into the middle of an enemy army packed full of high-tech weaponry.  Hmmmmm....actually, that sounds about right doesn't it?

I like the sentiment behind option 3 too.  

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

but with  AA-units aviable for all races it is balanced without additional snap fire

 

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

@Zap:



Well, isn't that why we have Firestorms and that weird Ork magnet thing and Hydras for? The Snap Fire weapons were added after flyers were strongly introduced and it worked. My point isn't that Snap Fire for all has no realism, because obviously it does. The point that I have made time and again is that this RULE AS IS does not work and has forced changes to other units making even more things annoying and broken. Can you understand what I am saying?  

Yup! Option 3, it's a classic.  

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

So...what do you propose ?

But, just to say that if you remove the snap fire rule for non AA units, welcome back ultra powerfull chaos and nids!!! If you can't shot at the transports, it's cool, 1° turn and they will be in your face: Khorne berserkers+triple charge + rhinos = 80cm range attack, unstoppable attack without snap firing... Maybe some^people will come complain later that CC units are too strong as you can't stop their transports...

That's strange, in the different games I played last year, I do not remember any player doing an extensive use of snap fire (even against a IG army)...My squats do not use snap fire rule often as it's important to keep some activation to avoid letting your opponent doing what he wants.

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

I'm ok and well, and off course a classic option three!  

Anyhow, snap fire is opportunity fire, right? Fire at a unit that you otherwise wouldn't be able to fire at, due to the system itself. As in that you wont be able to shoot at them neither before they move or after, even if that is weird and stOOpid.
Is it possible to rewrite it to only be applicable when it the above occurs?
*opens netEpic5/Gold and reads up*
...nah, doesn't seem unreasonable. Maybe that it's only to be used as per above. Ie you can't just use it everywhere.
But... I don't play netEpic, so who am I to interfere?!

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

EA players who bother to read up on the rules can have an opinion I guess.  

@Scream: Well, PD worked well as it was intended when first thought out in v4. Going back to the way things were in SM2 just doesn't make sense. So there's an always First Fire system we could perhaps use. Obviously this is just a rough collection of ideas dredged from the back of my mind so...

When an attacker engages a unit with Point Defence in close combat the Point Defence gets to fire before any other ability is initiated including transported troops disembarking.

Units on First Fire orders that are engaged in close combat get to fire in the first fire phase at their attacker. If they are pinned by the attacker than they may only fire at the attacker and if they are not pinned then they may fire as they wish within the normal targeting rules.

The No First Fire Daemon ability is returned (Units engaged in close combat with Daemons may not First Fire) but with a few additions. Only if the Daemon Pins the target AND that target is effected by Morale (it's not a morale roll it just means Tyranids, some Chaos units, AI's, Robots, Fearless + HQ etc are exempt) while the NO First Fire rule take effect. Point Defence always ignores the Daemon No First Fire Rule.

Drop the thing about AA Units being unable to target ground units and flyers in the same turn. It never made sense, Flak units would always have a faster traverse than normal units and a 360 fire arc. This would allow Snap Fire on ground transports too for those who pay for and bring the right tools to the battlefield.

I just know I've forgotten something else but that's all I can think of just now. Probably with Snap Fire for all out the way the other problems will evaporate. AA units would become a more attractive option as it should be. PD like this will give a very limited type of anti-personal protection to units (as it was intended) instead of a time wasting stop/start ah what the heck I'll just roll stuff cause I'm desperate kind of rule that was annoying even in SM2. The Daemons become what they always were intended to be. Scary Daemons instead of just another unit like most others with a special ability. Flyers only have to watch out for Flak AA units not every god damn thing on the board and maybe we could also keep the rule that allows the target if on First Fire orders to also fire on the attacking flyer with the usual modifiers to hit (-2?). (I still haven't given up on the idea of Interceptors somehow pouncing on enemy Flyers in the movement phase but that's another matter).

It would be worth at least trying to play test for comparison. I've played the old and the new, how many others who voted for Snap Fire could say the same I wonder? (I also think it may be some pesky EA players getting some payback for the girly insult).  

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

You can shoot at spore pods
with units on FF,
a spore pod has  a +4 save...in the old SM/TL rules at least




We always used and thought
The fire storm may target ground units although
while the hydra may only target troops on buildings, hills or higher locations on titans
so every AA-unit should target ground units
with this you always have enough snap firepower
to let your opponent think twice abaout what he do and where he moves

yes most of the time
but units hiding are unable to shoot most of the time
skimmer can do pop up attacks soonest on turn 2
tracked units have to move out of cover in turn 2
which forces them to move 2 turns out of 3 or 4

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

Ok, I'm probably stupid but I must confess I don't get it even after reading this thread multiple times: what, exactly, is the perceived problem with snap fire?  

1) it's too powerful against flyers?
2) it slows game down?
3) it degrades AA weapons?
4) Something else?

And BTW, 2nd edition SM did not have snap fire. 1st edition did. As for Net Epic, snap fire has been there from the beginning so I don't understand the above comment about things working out in v4 but not after it.  

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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.

Snap Fire as it is now was first introduced in v5, or it was re-introduced or whatever. I have no problems with units with the Snap Fire special ability but allowing ANY unit to fire on enemy units in the movement phase isn't working.

It is too powerful against close combat armies and even in general movement with the emphasis on Flyers.

True Snap Fire weapon (Flak/AA) units are potentially being overlooked as it is cheaper to use your Heavy Infantry (only an example) to do the same job. Ok, you need more of them than you do AA Snap Fire units but many players would realise they'd be taking some Heavy Infantry (or whatever) anyway.

Rules have been changed to accommodate this type of Snap Fire and it has made for even more weakness in some close combat army units. Daemon No First Fire Rule for one, Fear or any other close combat special ability that requires you to engage the enemy... which could be all the close combat special abilities to some degree I guess.

The Snap Fire for all units effects Point Defence. Point Defence worked very well in v4 when it was introduced and now I think we have gone back to SM2 days when we were rolling loads of 6+ 15cm attacks that did slow the game down. It was done away with in favour of PD and now it's back.

Does that make it any clearer?

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]