Because, and I'll be succinct, there is no way that Howling Banshees are as difficult to kill as Striking Scorpions, that's why   .

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. . . even if they are making fear inducing screams at you while dodging bullets like in Matrix . . . IMHO it is totally reasonable to let a higher save represent this additional distraction and agility (which is a point we both agree on)  

The issue you percieve is that doing this apparently makes them as tough as Striking Scorpions. Perhaps you would be happier if they got 4+ only in assault, not at other times (though this is yet another 'special ability' and uses a rule from the Dark Eldar list ).

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I would not like to see this happen.

Could you elaborate on that Blish, in the following thread: Warp Spiders Discussion

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Why not give Banshees an invulnerable save?  If they're dodgy enough for 4+, they're dodgy enough for an invulnerable.  

5+ save, Invulnerable, First Strike, Infiltrators seems like it would represent them well and be competitive.

EDIT:

Though now that I think about it - considering the minimal armor Banshees wear, their save would normally be 6+.  5+ already represents how dodgy they are.  

Also, once more: dodgy.

EDIT 2:

Honestly, I think we should bite the bullet and give them MW.  The fact that weapons that cut through armor like butter don't hurt tanks effectively in 40K is a problem with, well, 40K.  Not Epic.  MW and Infiltrators?  They'll be effective.  Oh, they'll be effective.

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Agree, partially. Not the whole banshee, just the mask, of course. But I'd also push CC up to 4+, as it should take them a good amount of effort and a hail of attacks to take out a big nasty marine and/or a tank. That would keep Scorpions the CC infantry of choice against hordes. They'd also be better than Spears at killing most armored thingies, but it'd be more dangerous with their lesser save.

I could probably live with their having a 4+ save when in b/c with another unit, but not for FF, although how feasible that would be within the rules, I'm not at all sure (one for Neal to comment on I think   ).



The problem here is one of semantics in 40K, in that it lumps a whole range of weapons under the collective term 'Power Weapon'.  This, however, does not include weapons like Power Fists, Chain Fists, Power Claws, Thunder Hammers, and other tank busting weaponry, and given that Howling Banshees are clearly not equipped with any of this sort of weaponry, I think giving them the MW ability is just not feasible, unless there is a way in which it could be restricted to infantry (i.e. they can only claim MW bonus when in b/c with infantry stands).  If this were possible within the rules without upsetting the apple cart, then I think it could work, and may be preferable to boosting their save.

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Statistically 5+ Invulnerable is equivalent to 4+ without, but Invulnerable also means a potential save against MW and TK weaponry, and I am sure you would not want that given your following comments.

Having variable armour when in B-B would produce anomalies that could be tricky; eg the HB moves into contact and then kills that unit; is it now in B-B for supporting fire?.

What you want can be done, but is a bit more complicated. If you do the maths you will discover that reducing enemy assault factors against 5+ armour is almost equivalent to improving the HB armour to 4+. So we could go for something like this

Howling Banshee
Move=20, Armour=5+, CC2+, FF5+
Shuriken Pistols (15cm) Small Arms
Banshee Mask (Base Contact) Assault Weapons - First Strike, Fear
Notes:- Infiltrator
"Fear" confers -1 to the assault factors of enemy in B-B with the Howling Banshee

Unfortunately this would be something unique to the HB mask, so may not pass muster. Equally it does not improve the overall survivability of the HB in assault - so any supporting fire would still be likely to destroy the HB as happens now - and this would effectively leave us with the current situation.

I agree here that giving the Howling Banshees CCMW with First Strike is just not on (see earlier comments on effects against titans). And I have already demonstrated a way of improving their CC ability against Infantry by using a new ability that would be usefull elsewhere, though whether this should be InfMW is another question.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Sorry, I meant a 6+ invulnerable like Commanders etc. provide.  As in 5+ save with 6+ invulnerable.  

I'm fine with them dodging that stuff.  They dodge.  It's the reason they have a 5+ save instead of 6+ in the first place.  



That aspect of the current situation seems almost iconically Howling Banshee.  Being incredibly flimsy is their forte - they make up for it by being quick and having big swords.  It's a conceptual problem, if you will, not a balance problem.  They die easily to shooting.  Famous for it, even.  5+ is OK.  6+ reinforced'd represent their dodginess.  Anything else is far more than they deserve, IMO.  

In regards to MW vs. Titans...good point.  5+ MW might reduce that problem, but then they're not as good vs. Infantry.  Sniper's OK, but it'd still reduce the Titan save, would it not (the range of Howling Banshee weapons is explicitly stated in their entry.  Argument's not really practical)?  

Personally I think MW keeps them flexible and, while they become quite threatening to many heavy targets, not so dangerous that they can't be avoided or shot to pieces or something else.  

Personally, I think almost any of the following abilities would work (with some stat adjustments):

Infiltrator+First Strike
MW+First Strike (decrease CC somewhat)
Sniper+First Strike

I kinda lean toward the first overall.  

However, representing power weapons is only really possible by accepting them as MWs or by creating a new ability.

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Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

I think Banshees would be very usable with CC2+ and 15cm infiltrators or just standard 20cm movement, combined with a minor nerf for Warp Spiders.

There's definitely no need to invent a new special rule just for them.

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I did mean 5+ armour with Invulnerable (6+). And this gives the equivalent of 4+ armour together with some survivability against MW and TK, making them even more powerfull.

And this may indeed be their fate at the present:- a one shot wonder that go down in a hail of lead! The point is that your picture suggests they should die to shooting and survive CC; but what about FF assaults?? If you are happy to include that, then we go for variable armour with 4+ in assaults, but 5+ at other times (and I'm cool with that)

I have been leaving them mounted in Wave Serpents for mobility and survivability; and in this position they make a 40cm assault into contact with your friendly neighbourhood titan (perhaps from behind cover) with 8x First Strike MW hacks at the wires and tubes etc with the results described   - and its all a bit much for these delicate ladies IMHO

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I agree that this (or indeed many of the other suggestions) would make them usable; I am just not conviced they would be used. As I have tried to point out, even in this presentation, they under-perform the other Aspects in several dimensions.

I totally understand the reluctance to introduce 'special rules. I have been presenting options for plausable ways of extending their power-survivability because none of the existing rules work well in representing HBs in their niche role.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I suppose an argument could be made for Howling Banshees to get a 4+ save in assaults, but I still think 4+ in b/c could be workable, as I'm not sure how much of an anomaly supporting fire would create, as the Banshees are either in base contact or they are not, so why would this be an issue?

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Well, apart from being a new special rule, the issue is that First Strike is considered a separate round of combat that is fully resolved before normal combat. This means that if the HBs kill their target in the First Strike round, they are no longer in B-B with an enemy unit in the normal and supporting fire rounds of combat.

This would inevitably raise the question whether the definition of B-B lasts until the end of the combat, until the end of the initial First Strike round, or some other definition.

I might add that if we assume the most restrictive definition, increasing the strength of their First Strike attack would actually diminish their survivability in assault because they would not be considered in B-B for the normal and support rounds, so in practice I suggest this ends up adding complexity for little ultimate benefit.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

That does shed a different light on things, I concur, as it wouldn't really be much of a bonus if First Strike ended up being a rule which helps them to die more quickly, so it would no longer be of benefit to them.  So much for that idea then.

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