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Necron List Changes

 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:10 am 
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Oh I absolutely agree, I just think they need a stat boost too.

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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:37 am 
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Quote: (mnb @ Sep. 15 2009, 12:43 )

what if they regenerated using the same rule as the necron special rule and void shields?
i have to say, it must be nice to have opponents that you guys play against. i would never suggest this knowing the crying i'll hear from one of my opponents. he acts like killing a necron ranks up there w/ the parting of the red sea, and you guys want to bring back war engines? if this ever gets put in place i might have to carry a gun while playing epic.

:laugh: I've no idea who you might be talking about!

Might be able to convince the missus to issue another day pass soon if more *ahem* vital testing needs carrying out :)

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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:29 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ Sep. 28 2009, 21:07 )

I was using 150 and 200 points.

Oddly the 1 mono 2 obo formations seemed to perform better, though largely because the 3 mono formations were rapidly targetted as a serious threat.

Overall though the basic idea of not allowing single monoliths makes a big difference to the list by dropping the activation count significantly. The actual costs and details of the formation building process are secondary to that. I actually lost one of the games I played with this change :p

I remain in favour of having the 2 formations rather than a conglomorated one, just for clarity's sake.

150 and 200 is way too low for those formations, even with the current point costs.  We discussed a few pages back 200 for 1M/2O and 250 for 3M and that is the range of what we need to be looking at.
---
As for clarity, I was actually trying to make it clearer.  If we make it one formation type, we can decribe it in a single line.
One Monolith plus 2-4 Obelisks or Monoliths (Obelisks cost 50 points each, Monoliths 90 points each)

If we make it two separate formations, it takes two lines to describe.
Three Monoliths for 250 points plus 0-2 Obelisks or Monoliths (Obelisks cost 50 points each, Monoliths 90 points each).
or
One Monolith and two Obelisks for 200 points plus 0-2 Obelisks or Monoliths (Obelisks cost 50 points each, Monoliths 90 points each).


That is just plain unwieldy.  Easy to understand, but it looks horrible and it is redundant.
Besides, you and I both discussed at the time that the 50 point disparity seemed a little too close for comfort.  

The single formation type allows for more flexibility in fielding Monoliths and Obelisks which is helpful since this is a custom built army for everyone still.  It avoids counts-as issues, provides real pricing, and still allows for the 'canon' formation.  Lastly, I think we can agree that pricing the Monoliths higher will certainly nudge it into being (more) externally balanced.

Just give it a try.  That is all we're asking. :D

---

Wraiths...  I'll ask Corey about the Wraiths too.




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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:05 pm 
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Moscovian, will this replace the current obelisk formation as well leaving it with a single mixed formation? secondly, are both methods intended as a single entry?

It might be simpler to have a fixed formation size and then allow an upgrade entry similar to the IG or Marine lists.

eg:
Three Monoliths for 250 points. upgrades allowed (0-2): Monolith, Obelisk

Ugrades section:
Monolith: add one monolith for 90 points
Obelisk: add one obelisk for 50 points

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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:24 pm 
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Sorry mosc, I meant 200 and 250 obviously, not 150 and 200.

As for the disparity, currently those formations would be only 60 points apart (195 vs 255) is it that big a deal? If so then 200 and 275 seem the sensible prices to go for.

Personally I wouldn't bother with the upgrades to the formations; I'd just stick at the 3 model formations. I really can't see anyone paying extra to make them bigger anyway.




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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:41 pm 
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Yeah, I just realized this is probably getting a little confusing for anyone who doesn't surround themselves with Necrons.   ???

The Obelisk formation has been moved from a core choice to a support choice.  It was a last minute decision on Corey's part and he has seen the error of his ways.

The Monolith (also a support formation) is currently offered as a single unit that you can add stuff to (up to 4 units, Obelisks or Monoliths).  The general consensus is that 3 is the lower limit for the number of units for any formation.  There may be an exception out there but so far, not on this list (war engines excluded, of course).

The discussion from the past came down to 'purists' and 'visionaries' (don't anyone take exception to this, please - it is just an illustration to make describing this easier).  Purists do not like to see units or formations that are non-canon (i.e. don't appear in the 40K realm) so the push was to have the 3xMonolith formation (3M) as the only choice for selecting Monoliths.

Visionaries want to expand the game as much as possible and so have no problems with Obelisks (non-canon units) being attached to such an important formation.  The 1 Monolith + 2 Obelisk (1M2O) formation seemed like the most obvious choice for the basic Monolith formation.

After some lengthy discussion, serious consideration was given to having BOTH formations appear as support formations that feature the Monolith.  Then, in addition to each formation, each one would be able to add additional Monoliths or Obelisks.  

I discussed it with Corey who gave it a tentative nod for testing.  In other words, put your money where your mouth is and playtest the suggestion; if it works, it will be modified on the list.

After writing it out, however, it dawned on me the price change between the 200 point 1M2O formation and the 250 point 3M formation was not big enough.  This was not a new revelation and -rewind several months ago- Zombocom and I both discussed that this might not be enough of a difference.  After all, for an additional 50 points you can get 2 more portals which are extremely useful.

Rewind even further and the old pricing for the Monoliths was 75 points and the Obelisks were 50 points.  While the Obelisks were priced fairly, most would agree that the Monoliths were underpriced at the time.  So Corey and I created a pricing structure that you see in Raiders that discouraged single Monolith play (125 point Monolith) but still allowed it.  But the popcorn concerns continued, this time with 1M1O formations dominating the issue.

Fast forward back to present day.  The goal now is to create a 3-5 unit formation that is built out of Monoliths and Obelisks.  That might be a 1M2O formation, 3M formation, or 3M2O, 1M4O, or whatever floats your boat.

The difference in opinion isn't about the formation itself but how to represent it on the army list.  The two separate formation idea would certainly work.  I just think it looks horrible and it can be simplified.  To paraphrase E&C: if something can be made simpler it should be.    I would agree in this case and suggested the formation to be written out as...
1 Monolith plus 2-4 Obelisks or Monoliths.

It allows for everything everyone wanted and is very simple to write out and understand.  So that is the lengthy description and hoepfully prevents you or anyone else from having to comb through the 9 pages before this.




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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:46 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ Sep. 29 2009, 14:24 )

As for the disparity, currently those formations would be only 60 points apart (195 vs 255) is it that big a deal? If so then 200 and 275 seem the sensible prices to go for.

Personally I wouldn't bother with the upgrades to the formations; I'd just stick at the 3 model formations. I really can't see anyone paying extra to make them bigger anyway.

Ah, yeah I remember us talking about that.  200 and 275 seems better IMO, which is why the other pricing struck me as so much better (190 vs 270, which is pretty close).  But the larger formations we should include only because people do take them.  Having played against and with the Necrons a lot (three Necron armies in a relatively small circle will do that to you  :p )I've seen those formations come up.  Not en masse but certainly as a way to shore up a center-strike formation that is going to get hammered.  My feeling on it is if people want to spend the points, let them.  It only pushes the Necrons to having fewer formations still (the goal of this change).

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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:56 pm 
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Moscovian:

IIRC the main 'purist' objection to Obelisks was more along the lines of "The Obelisk, as a non canon unit, shouldn't be a *compulsory* unit choice in 100% of Necron armies" rather than "The Obelisk should be removed because it is non canon".

I don't think anyone actually called for the Obelisk to be removed from this list, and personally I really like the Obelisk and think it enhances the theme of the Necron army (and I probably qualify as a 'purist' rather than a 'visionary').




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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Yes, you are correct. That is a better way to put it.  Regardless, however, the formation still makes the purists happy. :handshake:

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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Quote: 

1 Monolith plus 2-4 Obelisks or Monoliths.

It allows for everything everyone wanted and is very simple to write out and understand.  So that is the lengthy description and hoepfully prevents you or anyone else from having to comb through the 9 pages before this.


I think I understand what's going on now, thanks.

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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:30 pm 
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thanks for the summary, but you didn't mention what the point cost is for the formation/upgrades. or is that what we are supposed to nail down. if so, i'd stick w/ both your suggestions of 200 and 275.


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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:30 pm 
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The main reason I'm in favour of the two separate formations is the specific costs. If possible I'd like the basic formations to stick to 25 point increments in this case, hence 200 and 275 rather than 190 and 270. Equally, I prefer to have the basic cost of the formation spelled out in the army list rather than having to add it up myself (similar to the situation with the leman russ in the compendium).

I was really thinking in terms of no upgrades to the formations when I suggested the two separate ones. I still can't really imagine why anyone would go more than at most 4 units in the formation.




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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:35 pm 
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Quote: (mnb @ Sep. 29 2009, 22:30 )

thanks for the summary, but you didn't mention what the point cost is for the formation/upgrades. or is that what we are supposed to nail down. if so, i'd stick w/ both your suggestions of 200 and 275.

That's what we're trying to work out now.

We know the M+ 2O formation should be about 200, and the 3M formation around 275, but whether those are fixed formation costs, or costs build from a more flexible system is yet to be determined.




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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:37 pm 
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forget my last post. i forgot we were trying to get it to one formation. what would it look like? 125 for the monolith and then 75 for each additional, and 35 for the obelisks? that would bring it to 195 for 1m/2o and 275 for 3m which is pretty close to what you wanted.


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 Post subject: Necron List Changes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:58 pm 
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Hmm, I could have sworn I posted it.  I was thinking 90 per Monolith and 50 per Obelisk.  That works out very close what we have right now, but the Obelisks are no longer discounted and the Monoliths are no longer at a premium.

So...
3M would be 270 (90 x 3).
1M2O would be 190 (90 + 2*50).
2M2O would be 280.

With something like this you could conceivably put five Monoliths in one formation, although that would cost you 450 points to do it.  

Zombocom, under normal circumstances I'd agree with you but these are reeeeally easy denominations and vefy small formations.  I can't imagine anyone who plays Epic having to even pause to calculate the sum of 3-5 units. Does anyone else think this would be a problem?

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