Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

Ain't No Mountain High Enough...

 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
Ok, fresh off our success at resolving the Air caste units, we need to resolve a few issues. This may mean in some cases, clarifying the language around the rule(s), providing examples, etc.

Anyway, I believe in working on discrete units of work and then driving them to completion. So the next three may not be your favorites, but they are important and as soon as we get them done, there may be time for a couple others. Note that they are tied to the "character" of the Tau list and in a way, will define perceptions as well as play style.

So, here we go...

Topic 1: Special Rules - We have a lot of them. That doesn't help with the acceptance of our list. I really wasn't sure of how to approach them until Chroma came up with his variant list, in which he greatly simplified the SRs. I think he is on to something and we should discuss with the goal of reducing our SRs.

@Chroma: I don't know if you've done this yet, but I would really like to hear how you came up with your work.

Topic 2: The Tau Jump packs - I've never really liked this rule, perhaps because it seems to introduce issues while playing with it. To my way of thinking, that isn't solid rule design. So what can we do to fix this? Looking at Chroma's work again, he offered using the "Hit and Run" rule to simulate Crisis and Stealth. That makes sense to my simple mind because that's how they are played in 40K. That doesn't mean we have to use it, but I don't consider comments like "it's too Eldar like" to disqualify its use.

So what do we do with this? I am open to all suggestions as a starting point.

Topic 3: Drones - What do we do with these? Use the Grot rule? Consider them a figment of our imagination? Also, what about the Heavy Drone? Has anyone EVER used them or seen them used? If not, should we just drop them?

Ok, so that is what is on our plate now. Let's remember that we are a working group not a debating society, so if it looks like we are having trouble landing the plane, I'll start putting down the flaps.

On your marks, get set, GO!!!!

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:45 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Robotic Sentry rule can be changed so that Sentry Turrets can only deploy as normal units (ie Garrison or by normal deployment). They should be given Fearless and Scout and a 6+ armour save. This will stop them being able to Markerlight the opponents DZ (the obvious problem with them now).

In this guise, they are a back-up to the Pathfinders, Tetras etc.
They also don't need a special rule if used this way.

If they are ML only formations then they don't get/need an activation but using them this way, paves the way for the armed Turrets to be used (for defensive scenarios, variant list etc).

Turrets should not be chucked away when there is a perfectly reasonable solution to their present problems. I believe it was The Real Chris who originally came up with this idea and it is playable (I have done a BatRep using this idea).

Tau Jump Pack - I'm in favour of a 10-15cm bonus move after firing (note only on an Advance or Double action). This is simple and something different. It has the effect of increasing the Tau Jump Pack equiped units firing range (the MW attack on the Crisis Suits is much more usable this way - get into range, blast away, jump back to cover and the game continues with no interruptions/pauses as Tau jump away again). This is a simple Special Rule and an effective one.

Drones.
Drones just could use the wording on Tyranids Expendable rule and add the garrison exception into list upgrade.

I agree with this. Heavy Drones are a cheap(ish) way to get MarkerLights into most formations. An alternative would be to allow normal Drones as an upgrade only and allow the Heavy Drones to be fielded in the independant formation. Helps to prevent Drone spamming and gives the Heavy Drones a use.

Supreme Commander.
Supreme Commander can be folded into Coordinated Fire rule.
Agree with this.

Tau Deflector Shield - The simple 5+ Inv Save propsed by TRC is fine with me. Simple and easy to explain.


Good luck Honda... You're gonna need it!  :whistle:




_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:11 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 694
Location: Austria
Quote: (Hena @ 19 Jan. 2009, 06:43 )

1. Supreme Commander can be folded into Coordinated Fire rule.
2. Markerlight Sentry Turret rules can be dropped completely.

3. Tau Jump Pack is good as is.
4. Drones just could use the wording on Tyranids Expendable rule and add the garrison exception into list upgrade.

1. agreed
2. drop these godd****d sentries once and for all  :sad:
3. agreed
4. I´m here with Onyx in the first shot. Allow only light drones as upgrades. Heavy drones as independent units (for a reasonable price). Maybe there are some problems I do not see yet with this (exept the usual moarn  :tongue: ). If this happens drop the heavy drones completely, as they are FW only and not everything has a place. (which will never happen, I know). Imho Heavy Drones have the same task as the current cheap LV formations....I would rather like to see the task of markerlighting done by this units.

my 0,002 cent

RS

edit due bad spelling and explanation




_________________
Attrition is the proof of absence of Strategy


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:36 am
Posts: 207
Special Rules

1.  Markerlights/GM - This one needs to be fixed to the effect that GMs may only fire at Marked units.  Which will simplify the rule considerably.  It needs to be fixed to match up with the work we did in the Air Caste thread.  That will considerably cut down on the text for that rule.

2.  Special SC rule can be eliminated completely.

3.  Jet Packs - The rules as they are seem ok.

The proposal to add hit-n-run like abilities seems ok, however Tau battlesuits are not that fast. I really don't want to have them zipping about too much.  This ability could be abused to allow a Crisis suit to double, then shoot, then further advance to claim an objective.  That is not the intention of the rule, but it could certainly be abused that way if not carefully worded.

Another thought would be to allow Tau w/ Jet Packs to make Pop Up Attacks like a skimmer.  Another idea is that simply the extra movement that battlesuits get in 40k doesn't need to be translated to Epic and the rule can be pitched entirely.

I would be in favor of the simplest rule here.

4.  No independent gun drone formations.  Heavy drones could be independent as Onyx suggests.  Like you Honda, I am curious how much they would be missed (for a unit with no models).  Otherwise the rule change as others suggest seem good.

5.  Deflector Shields - 5+ Inv Save as we used in the Air Caste thread.

6.  We seem to be testing the Always Popped up rule for now, so support craft can go.  It can be added back in later if needed.

7.  The most recent suggestion seemed to be that sentry turrets were leaving for now.  Onyx's suggestion has merit, but I would like to think on it a bit more.  Why did you go with Fearless Onyx?  Should they have a ZOC?

What if we went with something similar to the Eldar Wraitgate.  The turrets could replace an objective marker on the Tau half and provide marking on anything within 30cm.





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:34 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Quote: (shmitty @ 19 Jan. 2009, 14:20 )

7.  The most recent suggestion seemed to be that sentry turrets were leaving for now.  Onyx's suggestion has merit, but I would like to think on it a bit more.  Why did you go with Fearless Onyx?  Should they have a ZOC?

The Real Chris (I think it was him anyway) came up with Fearless to prevent the whole formation of 3 being wiped out by a clipping Assault (kill the end one and the rest die from hack down). These things are robots and really shouldn't be affected until destroyed.

No ZOC (ie they shouldn't be able to claim objectives but may be able to contest them??).

Those that want Robotic Sentries removed from the list really should understand just how much this proposal would change the effectivness of Sentry Turrets.
They will not be on your side of the board.
They will not light up your deployment zone.

For anyone to read IA3 and think that the Tau shouldn't have Sentry Turrets in the list is astounding...  :sus:


3.  Jet Packs - The rules as they are seem ok.

The proposal to add hit-n-run like abilities seems ok, however Tau battlesuits are not that fast. I really don't want to have them zipping about too much.  This ability could be abused to allow a Crisis suit to double, then shoot, then further advance to claim an objective.  That is not the intention of the rule, but it could certainly be abused that way if not carefully worded.

Another thought would be to allow Tau w/ Jet Packs to make Pop Up Attacks like a skimmer.  Another idea is that simply the extra movement that battlesuits get in 40k doesn't need to be translated to Epic and the rule can be pitched entirely.

I would be in favor of the simplest rule here.


The extra movement on the end of the Tau Jump Pack (after firing) could be easily balanced. I think it was E&C (wish he was around right now - he always has lots to say about Tau) who suggested the reduction of the Jump Pack units initial movement (ie 25cm movement becomes 20cm) and the free move after firing just adds that movement back in. No free jumping about any further than they could originally move. I hope I've described that correctly?

Surely, a 10cm move after firing is the simplest rule option presented so far?




_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:37 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
1) ML/GM - Removal of unguided mode reduces rule length.

2) Supreme Commander - fold into unit entry

3) Jet Packs - Reduce movement by 5cm, allow 10cm move after shooting on advance or double.

4) Drones - Expendable ala nids.

NOTE: We really need to create a NetEA document listing new universal special rules, rather than repeating them endlessly in different army lists. Expendable, Free Planetfall and Support Craft are all currently used in multiple lists.

5) Deflector shields - My ideal proposal is to drop the rule entirely and replace with a normal invulnerable save, and perhaps a few point reductions to compensate.

6) Support craft rule can be removed to NetEA Universal Special rules document, and at least temporarily replaced with APU. APU can be simply a unit note:

notes: Sklmmer(Always counts as popped up)

7) Sentry gun special rules can be removed entirely. Either they will be removed from the list to section 6 (and future drone varient list), or they become normal garrisonning scouts. Either way the special rule is unneeded.

8. Free Planetfall is either replaced with normal Planetfall or removed to the new NetEA Universal Special Rules document.

With these proposals the special rules can be cut at least in half.




_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
Ok, here is the first cut. It turns out just looking at everyone's positions that we really aren't that far off. I guess we'll see.

*****************************************************************************************
Proposal
*****************************************************************************************


Special Rules:

1. Drop Supreme Commander, modify Coordinated Fire rule. I need someone to takd a stab at what this would look like.

2. Drones to be an upgrade to a formation, use Tyranids "Expendable" rule. I need someone to provide this rule so that we are all on the same page.

3. Seekers may only be fired at a target within range of a unit/formation containing Markerlights

4. Deflector shields adopted from Air caste thread

5. Free Planetfall is gone. Requires spacecraft just like other lists

6. Jump packs: Move 15 cms, shoot, move 15 cms. Seems really simple and emulates 40K. Should this ability be limited to only single moves? I think yes. Double moves operate as normal?

This will apply to Crisis and Stealth suits. Drones will be a formation upgrade. Heavy drones will be dropped.

So the operating mode would be to move as quickly as prudent, then as you get close, you slow down a bit to get your shots in without getting hit in return. This also allows for a determined enemy to engage you in HtH if you are not careful, which is also true in 40K.

Thoughts?

7. Support craft is gone. APU will be added to vehicle notes for the appropriate vehicles


Units:

1. Drop Heavy Drones. We have Stealths, Pathfinders and Tetras for MLs.

2. Marker Light Sentry drones - Ahem, I was actually the creator of the ML Sentry drones way back when. I even scratch built 18 models I was so excited about the concept. Considering though, how much debate has gone on about them, given what I thought was a simple concept to introduce, I certainly don't feel like I have helped the list at this point.

I was re-reading IA3 and continue to think that it is possible for them to have a place in the list. However, since I am not getting royalties for the idea, I can also drop them with no tears. However, I think the unit got off to the wrong foot because of a rushed original design and the law of unintended consequences.

Having said that, I was re-affirming what we know of the MLDS and this is what is either stated directly or can be inferred:

1. The Cadians encountered these as they were driving deep into Tau territory. This would cause me to think that the drones should never be able to be deployed in the opponents half of the board.

2. The MLSD were used for area denial. So it seems like a formation with one or two units with the range of the normal ML could accomplish this.

3. They have very weak armor in 40K (10), so it shouldn't take too much to wipe out. They were an annoyance that delayed the advance, not crippled it.

All of this leads me to believe that perhaps the way they should be handled is difficult terrain. The placement of the MLDS turns that part of the board into Difficult terrain until destroyed. Let's not focus on points right now, but would that be a workable solution?

To summarize:

1 Marker Light Sentry Drone, 5+ armor save, turns open terrain into difficult terrain within 30 cms of model.

Then it wouldn't need any special or odd rules...I think.   :whistle:

So, what say ye?

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:52 pm
Posts: 4262
I'd say drop the sentry drones for another list. To me the GT scenario is all about a meeting engagement at the FEBA, not one side driving deep into enemy territory.
The only army that goes against that is siege masters, but I guess they never advance to the FEBA anyway  :laugh:

Every time the sentries come up more special rules/text is required to make them work.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (Honda @ 19 Jan. 2009, 17:22 )

2. Drones to be an upgrade to a formation, use Tyranids "Expendable" rule. I need someone to provide this rule so that we are all on the same page.

Expendable

Expendable units do not generate Blast markers when they are removed as casualties. This includes special rules which create Blast markers when the unit is hit. A formation that only includes expendable units suffers Blast markers as normal. Unless otherwise noted, expendable units DO count as casualties for the purposes of assault resolution (EA1.12.7).

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (Honda @ 19 Jan. 2009, 17:22 )

1. Drop Supreme Commander, modify Coordinated Fire rule. I need someone to takd a stab at what this would look like.

What needs to be modified with "Co-ordinated Fire"?  Dropping the "Tau Supreme Commander" is just that, getting rid of the "special" supreme commander for Tau and having the Shas'O note being this:

"Notes: Character, Co-ordinated Fire, Invulnerable Save, Supreme Commander"

That way, if really necessary, the Shas'O can call a combined assault, but he/she's the only one that can.

6. Jump packs: Move 15 cms, shoot, move 15 cms. Seems really simple and emulates 40K. Should this ability be limited to only single moves? I think yes. Double moves operate as normal?


So it's a "lessened" Hit-and-Run rule?  Why not just reduce their move to 20cm and go all the way?  How would this work in formations that include Crisis Suits and other non-Jetpack units?

I was re-reading IA3 and continue to think that it is possible for [Markerlight Sentry Drones] to have a place in the list.

The MLSD is the Tau version of the "minefield", it doesn't belong in the main "attack" Tau army list... there will be other lists that can make use of it... and there are enough other Markerlight units in the list as well.




_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:36 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Quote: (Honda @ 19 Jan. 2009, 17:22 )

All of this leads me to believe that perhaps the way they should be handled is difficult terrain. The placement of the MLDS turns that part of the board into Difficult terrain until destroyed. Let's not focus on points right now, but would that be a workable solution?

Too weird. Either make them a normal formation of LVs with scout (terrain denying, and can garrison) and MLs, or remove them entirely. Difficult terrain makes very little sense, and is yet another special rule. You can mix them with gun turrets to make their activation mean something.




_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:36 am
Posts: 207
Honda, your list looks like a good start.

Your MLSD is a creative idea, but probably a bit complex.

IF the MLSD are a unit, I think just a basic )cm move unit with MLs would be fine.  I don't like them having Scout, mostly as I don't see why they would have such a large ZOC.  They certainly can't spread out to cover ground if they are immobile.  By nature of their having a move of 0cm they will be eligible for Garrison.  Of course, then if you play something other than the GT scenario that does not have Garrison rules, they are less viable.  Would these be limited in some fashion.

I proposed the idea of them being an objective replacement similar to the Eldar Wraithgate.  Given some more thought I like this idea a bit more.  They are defensive in nature, so them being deployed on an objective makes sense.  You don't have to worry about ZOC issues with them.  It gives the Tau some good ML coverage on their own half, freeing Pathfinder, etc to move to the other side.  There would be a natural limitation to how many the Tau could deploy, so there would be no worries of them being popcorned, etc.

Any thoughts on that idea?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:35 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
Shmitty,

So to echo back what I think you are saying:

1. One Tau objective could be replaced with the MLDS per the Eldar equivalent Wraithgate rules.

2. It counts as a non-mobile ML

I think that makes sense. Limited numbers, only deployed on the Tau side of the board. However, if the MLDS is going to replace the objective, then there is no need to mention garrisoning, is there?

If this was adopted, then the Tau could "game" with one of the objectives to gain ML coverage on part of the board, but you then also take the chance of placing an objective within easy reach of the opponent...so some give and take. I rather like that.

Questions: Can Wraithgates be destroyed? If no, then is that equitable? If yes, then we just need to come up with some decent stats to cover the option. The MLDS is fairly easy to take out, so it won't be too beefy. If destroyed, I am assuming that the Tau do not give up an objective...or do they? Should they?

I must say I like this approach. I'm sure there is something grossly wrong with how I am seeing it, which should surface shortly (one thousand one, one thousand two...).

So what are the downsides to this?

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Quote: (shmitty @ 19 Jan. 2009, 19:41 )

They are defensive in nature, so them being deployed on an objective makes sense.

If they are garrisoned they'll also be on an objective in your own half, and most importantly require no special rules!

Note that I still personally favour removal.




_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net