On Morays and Mantas, if we speeded them up a bit to 25cm (as Shmitty is suggesting), could we then reduce or drop the number of Railguns? The 60cm Ion cannons would then have a similar reach on a double (engage range of 110cm as opposed to the original railgun armed 115cm).

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Ok, (deep breath) - I have not used or played against these, so treat the following with care (and be gentle with me ):-

In general, I like the approach here of increasing the speed slightly whilst toning down the range and removing the railguns. I have always understood the Moray to be the equivalent of a SHT or scout titan, so for that level of cost it should have similar capabilities:-

Warhound (doubling engage range 105cm)
AP ~4.3 hits from 6 weapons (but 1.6 is slow firing MW)
AT ~3.0 hits from 6 weapons (but 1.6 is slow firing MW)

Baneblade (doubling engage range 105cm)
AP ~1.9 hits from 4 weapons (0.6 is Ignore cover)
AT ~1.9 hits from 4 weapons

Shadowsword (Doubling engage range 120cm)
AP ~1.5 hits from 3 weapons (0.9 is TK)
AT ~0.9 hits from 1 weapon   (TK)
WE ~1.8 hits from 1 weapon   (TK)

Eldar Revenant (Doubling engage range 115cm)
AP ~3.3 hits from 4 weapons
AT ~3.0 hits from 4 weapons

Eldar Scorpion (doubling engage range 110cm)
AP ~2.0 hits from 2 weapons
AT ~1.6 hits from 1 weapon

etc

----------------------------
Moray (Shmitty stats) (Doubling engage range 110cm)
AP ~4.1 hits from 7 weapons
AT ~3.0 hits from 7 weapons (1.3 are GM)

This still seems a rather overpowered compared with similar vehicles from other races, especially given skimmer and shields etc. I think you could drop to 3x Twin-linked Ion cannon and still have a very respecable 7 weapons load with stats comparable to a single Revenant or Warhound (which is still OTT IMHO), though at 300 the cost may still be a bit light and should perhaps go to 325-350.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

It is a general convention in Epic that a Twin-Linked weapon gains +1 to hit.  The stats I listed are what is found on the Barracuda which has just single weapon, while the Tigershark carries Twin-Linked Weapons.  Sorry if that wasn't very clear.

I will say the Moray is a complete stab in the dark for me, so I am not surprised if it does not fit.  To that end, I tried to make this Moray more equivalent to a scout Titan than a SHT.  The fact that it has shields. etc gives it that.  It also comes out of the 1/3rd points like a titan, so it makes sense to compare it there.

Warhound (doubling engage range 105cm)
AP ~4.3 hits from 6 weapons (but 1.6 is slow firing MW)
AT ~3.0 hits from 6 weapons (but 1.6 is slow firing MW)

Eldar Revenant (Doubling engage range 115cm)
AP ~3.3 hits from 4 weapons
AT ~3.0 hits from 4 weapons

Moray (Shmitty stats) (Doubling engage range 110cm)
AP ~4.1 hits from 7 weapons
AT ~3.0 hits from 7 weapons (1.3 are GM

Removing the Rail Cannons on the Moray removes the usefulness of the Moray.

I have played the Ion armed Moray and it is NOWHERE near as effective as the Rail armed one.

I'm ceratinly not in favour of a solely Ion Cannon armed Moray (meaning, I want the option of how I arm my Morays).
I really hope this isn't a serious proposal.
The weapons will be toned down by APU (as long as everyone is playing using 12 terrain features as per the Tournament scenario). There is absolutely no need to tone them down further. Both the Revenant and Warhound have access to MW type weapons. An Ion only armed Moray is not close in comparison to them. Morays are a customisable unit, able to take on infantry (Ion)or Armoured Vehicles (Rail) depending on setup. Why would I want to take on Leman Russ', SHT's, Titans, etc with Ion Cannons? That is part of the Morays job (hunting RA targets).

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I don't disagree with your views in principle, I just don't like the inclusion the use of the TK Railgun. Don't the Tau have any other MW weapons that fit the 'RA Tank hunting' role (like Fusion cannons at MW4+)?

The point of contention is that in giving the TK Railcannon to the Moray, its role then crosses over that of the AX-1-0, and this seems to contradict the 'fluff'.

BTW, though the Warhound has MW, it is also slow firing and both the Warhound and Revenant weapons are 45cm range which also limits their power dramatically. IMHO we should be looking to similar ranges for the Moray weapons. I might add that Eldar Scorpions do not seem unduely troubled by terrain, and these skimmers have the same movement and weapon ranges as those proposed here.

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Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Unfortunately at this point no they don't.  The only MW type weapon in the Tau arsenal is the Fusion Blaster, which is very short ranged and not practical for a vehicle like the Moray, even in an upgraded version.  The Tau have nothing like a Plasma Blastgun described anywhere in their backstory or 40k lists.  MWs are generally very large scale destructive weapons, which is not how the Tau are described as operating, preferring very precise, long ranged firepower.  I am trying to think of what other armies use as MW and they are typically BIG GUNS, which is not ht Tau philosophy, the Railcannon being the only known exception.

The Epic Tau list has invented a MW Seeker Missile called a Tracer Missile, but that is not the role described for the Moray, but rather set out for the Scorpionfish.  The primary Tau anti-tank weapon is a Railgun.  I am all for giving the Railgun the Lance ability to show its described ability to punch heavy armor, but I don't know that this helps with the Moray.

IMHO we should be looking to similar ranges for the Moray weapons.

Ok, I like where we are headed with the Tigersharks/AX. I will summarize in the morning.

As far as the Moray goes, historically, there have always been two versions, one Ion, the other Rail cannon. What if we combine them?

A couple of times I have mentioned that perhaps the Moray should be half a Manta, without the transport capability. Could that work? It might be enough to distinguish itself from the AX.

Thoughts?

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Honda

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- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Don't the Tau have any other MW weapons that fit the 'RA Tank hunting' role (like Fusion cannons at MW4+)?

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I'd like to see the stats but I could see that working well.

More firepower than the AX-1-0 and no frills like the Manta.
Look forward to seeing your ideas for this.

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ok, then lets keep the Moray w/ the weapons options in there.  If Onyx has found through playing that the Ion Moray is not that great then let's not force it on folks.  However, I am not sure of a craft w/ Ion AND the Railcannons.  That brings us up to the same firepower as the Manta and that makes the Manta less desirable.  The Moray has a good niche where it is, let's give it the choice of the 2 main weapons.

A Moray does have to have more firepower than an AX-1-0 formation or it doesn't have a reason to exist.

I believe it should exist.

Having the same amount of firepower as a Manta (or slightly less) does not remove the Manta's reason to exist. The transport abilities of the Manta are very important to the Tau way of warfare.

I look forward to seeing  Honda's ideas.

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That is a good idea.  Enough people have units of 3, so it seems fair.

Just a note - Honda and I are monitoring this and we will hold off the next version of the Tau list to see how this (and other discussion) progresses. We wont wait months, but it would be better hold a short time.

Thanks.

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