Add Deathstrikes and it gets really ugly. I don't know why people don't complain about SHT heavy Guard lists more?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Because they are plain slow, pack less firepower than Leman Russ companies and are much more fragile due catastrophic results on critical hits.

Already tried such a list (Minvervas) and you die horrible to more agile armies (which is every army cancelling out Orc-ùge Mob spams or IG Infantry hordes)

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Attrition is the proof of absence of Strategy

Wouldn´t all of the above apply to a Decimator-centric list as well, but without the SHT Coy discount, the ability to include AA or add cheap activations?

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Just to serious, I fail comparing IG SHT and Decimators because of their special abilities. Spamming IC MW templates between 3 and 9BP, and complete immunity to hackdowns due fearless are hard to counter. Even Shadowswords have only 1 shot and are helpless in any engagement scenario which does not include WE. Decimators are good against everything due their weapon ability.

1.) they have the Macroweapon-Ignore Cover template! of doom(especially with 2+ vehicle in 1 formation)  
2.) they are all fearless
3.) they cost only 25 pts more than a plain simple baneblade.
4.) they pack a lot more of firepower than a baneblade, not in the number of shots but in raw destructive force because of ignoring every defensive feature on the battlefield exept RA backed up units.

This little steel-buggers are the most destinctive feature of the MW creep we encountered early in Chaos list generation. And sadly this has not changed until yet.

but this are only my thoughts, don´t take this too serious. My 4 games against BL I lost horribly because I got raped by decimator which simply refused to die and shot my vanilla marines to pretty little chunks of meat because their ability to ignore simply everything, from cover to armor saves. And backed up with ferals I only played against MW-template-ignore cover units....boring and one sided....

my 0,001 cent

Soren

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Attrition is the proof of absence of Strategy

Decimators got the 0-2 restriction because of armies made up of loads of them. Lots of single decimators (7 or 8 I seem to remember), and 3 Ferals. Was - bar the free SC formation - an all fearless, all WE army. Oh and some stuff for AA typically. There wasn't the av/we problem you have with hydra and SHTs that way.

No activation disadvantage, everything was hard as nails AV only targets, if stuff broke it got to charge forward to cover typically and they are all fearless unlike the Guard. Oh and stacks of excellent AP secondary fire to deal with infantry hordes. Hence the 0-2 patch. Imperial SHTs just lack the firepower, activations, high strategy rating, Supreme Commander and fearlessness. The Imperial comparable army incidentally I always thought was 4 Warhounds, 3 SHT companies and 2 Hydra formations and 2 sentinel formations.

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@Soren

Read the recommendations. This discussion is about MW-only Decimators and IC-only Ferals. This kinda kills your points 1 and 4.

If memory serves, some IG SHTs happen to be Fearless as well, and even have Inspiring on top of it.
For free.


Nr. 3 is apples and oranges, I specifically referred to the discount in IG SHT Coys

As to a SSword being wasted if there are no WE targets, I beg to differ. Shooting anything with a save positively dead, even Inf in good cover, at long range, is patently useful. The list I suggested includes a reasonable mix of SSwords and BBlades as well, I´m sure that it won´t lack targets against most non-tooled armies.



@TRC

Care to build a BL list that takes advantage of that free SC, has anywhere close to the AA coverage the 4 Hydras I suggested give (a minimum of 2 Oblits would seem necessary, in 2 seperate formations preferably)? A sensible BTS formation would be welcome as well.

Activations-wise, the IG SHT-spamlist is at 8-9, pretty solid.

That said, Decimators are a minor issue. While I do believe that they need not be restricted without IC, I would not lose much sleep if they were.

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Removing the 0-2 restriction along with Ignores Cover will allow us to find out if the Decimators are now internally balanced.

If it turns out that they're still too powerful when spammed, then they can have their points cost nudged or similar, rather than returning to the non-scaling 0-2 hard limit (Which only ever patches over problems, it doesn't fix them).

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I thought the move of the assault group to the titan/air 1/3rd would solve the 0-2 problem myself?

It does solve the 0-2 problem, the question is whether the Decimator needs to be Titan/Air.

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@Irondeath: Taking the discount for Ig SHT means to fix 500 pts in one formation, where 1 of the tanks out of 3 is fearless at maximum.
For 450 pts I get 2 activations, completely fearless with all tactical advantages. And just to be sure, I read the recommendations, but none of them are written to stone yet so they are not point of the discussion when comparing units used in official army lists.   .

to kill the 0-2:  It begs for buying as much of them as possible. for 2250 pts I get 10! single WE entries, sure everbody of them slow, but all fearless and MW-BP spamming and leaves me with 750 pts to buy some decent formation to fill some holes. (Kay, maybe you buy not 10 of them, but what´s about 8?) I would also invest into 2 Ferals, just to get some WE into the list    the spared points...well, let´s see, some units have to be taken
The only way I see killing the o-2 is eighter an unit size increase, point increase for single Decimators (like Warhounds got in IG lists) or bringing them into the 1/3rd limit. Everything else cries for exploit. (Hey, it´s possible to create an army with only MW-BP weapons in, sounds really funny to play against)

my o,oo2 cent

Soren

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Attrition is the proof of absence of Strategy

Despite not being official, the Minervans are pretty balanced and Mosc handed a copy of Raiders to Jervis and didn't get told to stuff it.

Since Minervans can
a) Put the SC anywhere
and
b) take better SHTs than Steel Legion

lets compare the Decimator/Feral spam list to this one that I have actually used and been forbidden to play against my wife with.

SHT company (SC, Armored Regiment Commissar, 3 Stormhammers) - BTS
SHT company (Armored Regiment Commissar, 3 Stormhammers)
SHT company (Armored Regiment Commissar, 1 Stormblade, 2 Shadowswords)
SHT company (Armored Regiment Commissar, 1 Stormblade, 2 Shadowswords)

Thunderbolts (2 Thunderbolts)
Thunderbolts (2 Thunderbolts)
Thunderbolts (2 Thunderbolts)
Thunderbolts (2 Thunderbolts)
Thunderbolts (2 Thunderbolts)
Thunderbolts (2 Thunderbolts)

This list is very beardy and Stormhammers are too good as it is. Stormblades with a Commissar greatly reduce the vulnerability of Shadowswords of being Engaged. Clever Objective placement on your side can allow one Company to claim all your objectives and a steady rolling on through will ensure any army without tons of MW gets crushed under your treads.

So, back OT.

If the Decimator/Ferals are better than this than they need to be toned down certainly.

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
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Is it? I think that it probably does as is (ie as part of the Assault Co). I also think that the unit is fine as it is without changes as part of that move but that needs to be tested.

I currently now have four Decimator models so I can attempt a game using two formations of two to see how work

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I think that there is no reason for them to be Fearless.

As to the power of the MW/IC it is placed on a very slow vehicle. In games it is often quite difficult to get your opponent to stick around to get shot by it :-)

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

to para-phrase a quote from "Kelly's Heroes":-

"I was assaulted by an army comprising only Decimators; really ASSAULTED" - - - several times to prove a point  (in the early days when there was no restriction). To say it was brutal is an understatement.

I do hope we are not contemplating removing the restriction as part of the exercise in downgrading the Decimator and Feral. MW with IC is only part of the problem with this kind of WE-centric army; large numbers of Fearless WE is also a key factor. The same issue is being addressed in the 'Nidzilla' list.

Putting them in the titan-air restriction would help significantly and IMHO is the thing to be tested. I might add, I cannot remember seeing many BL A/c in competitions, probably because point-for-point, Decimators and Ferals are so much better - and they can contest objectives too!

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Your opponent places the objectives on your side or have I mis-read what you meant ?