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Support Craft/LOS

 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:10 am 
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I'm with Moscovian.

It may not be a totally accurate representation of the rule but I think it is the best simple solution. I'm sure there must be more detailed games out there that would represent this concept better but they are not Epic (and I hope Epic never becomes that complicated).

Morays/Mantas are giant flying targets. Morays are so often broken in our games anyway - they can't hide so why should targets be able to hide from them (at least a target in cover gets a defensive bonus).
It is a much simpler solution than the always pop-up skimmer idea.

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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:03 am 
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Morays are so often broken in our games anyway


That's because they are your enemy's greatest priority ; They're a cheap activation with extreme firepower (To which LoF can never be blocked)... of course your enemy does everything he can to break them ASAP!

I hope Epic never becomes that complicated)

You're right that Epic isn't a complicated game (Warhammer 40,000 is a complicated game).

Epic is a complex game, where interactions between different styles of units create tactical complexity.

Support Craft are basically anathema to that complexity : They can see and kill everything on the board, and everything on the board can take a shot at them... it's like playing a Wargame with no terrain on the table... the tactical options available become very simple and very 'point and shoot' obvious.

'Always popped up skimmers' on the other hand, would introduce some tactical complexity, so that doing something other than 'point and shoot' with your Support Craft would actually become possible.

At the moment they are the simplest units in the game, there is zero skill required in their use, only luck...

...That's a hallmark of Warhammer 40,000*, not Epic...

...And that's another reason that I dislike Morays... :whistle:



* Warhammer 40,000: A game which includes hundreds of Special Rules, most of which do not add to the tactical complexity of the game, but only make the gameplay itself more complicated by adding an extra layer of unnessesary rules. Oh and the game is much more heavily based on luck than Epic...

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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:04 am 
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That's because they are your enemy's greatest priority ; They're a cheap activation with extreme firepower (To which LoF can never be blocked)... of course your enemy does everything he can to break them ASAP!


And I have no problem with that. Every army has a unit/formation that you want to kill quickly and thats part of the game.

it's like playing a Wargame with no terrain on the table...

You do remember that its only going to be 2 or 3 units from the Tau army that use this ability?
Not really worthy of such sweeping, exagerated statements.

Always popped up will require more work (checking to see if terrain is in the way).

At the moment they are the simplest units in the game, there is zero skill required in their use, only luck...
So they are the same as Deathstikes, all artillery etc.
Or maybe the skill is in picking targets and positions.
Again, such statements are exagerated E&C.

It's really not really constructive to compare the rules complexity of 40K and Epic.
Apart from sharing fluff there 's no comparison.

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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:17 am 
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I would love 'always popped-up' rule (and extra fixing to skimmer rules, but that is another story). Mainly because it is just silly that you cannot hide by being next to a tall building - would require support craft to rise to like 2000cm to see you. And then you can return fire with weapons with range of 15cm...

Actually flyers should use the same rules for those too-long-range attack (over 30cm).
Just silly that some thunderhawk can snipe from 75cm an unit hiding behind a building and then turn away - gthat could easily require height of like 2000cm. For closer range it is a bit different as then the aircraft would eventually fly over the target anyway, but those long range shots...


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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:00 pm 
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If that's the way you want to play flyers be my guest.  I won't do it - the air rules already draw enough attention away from the real game.

As for the Support Craft rule, I am not suggesting we can't change it.  I am saying that I am personally not in favor of changing it.  The abstraction doesn't bother me (nor does it seem to bother the majority of players) because even the unit's position is an abstraction.  Of course, I hate to rain on the naysayer's parade but every single one of your unit positions are abstractions.  When your infantry are 5cm apart they really aren't spaced 5 men tightly together then a break, 5 men tightly together and then a break, etc.  They are strung out and covering that area in between the unit stands.  So technically when you get to 5cm you should be close combatting somebody.  You also have to have LOS to a unit even though LOS to a point between the units should be just as good.  But we all deal with those abstractions. :glare:

And combining the distance abstraction to the Support Craft abstraction makes no sense.  You are multiplying X times Y without knowing either value then telling me you know what the answer is.  Just plain silly.

Support Craft represent a very small percentage of the Tau army, an even smaller percentage of the Dark Eldar army, and don't even appear in other lists (yet).  Its effect on the game (positive, negative, or otherwise) is nominal and as such the RAW is simple enough to be digested by anyone and should be left alone IMO.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  As mentioned before, I agree that the designation of a specific unit as a support craft may be questionable but the rule works fine.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this thread.




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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:34 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 08 Jul. 2008, 09:03 )

Support Craft are basically anathema to that complexity : They can see and kill everything on the board, and everything on the board can take a shot at them... it's like playing a Wargame with no terrain on the table... the tactical options available become very simple and very 'point and shoot' obvious.

Exactly. This is what is wrong with the Support Craft rules.

"Always popped-up" sounds right to me. The darned things need a special rule in any case, so they might as well have this.


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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:49 pm 
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How big is the Moray compared to Eldar Super Heavies,just as a reference for being a skimmer.


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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:56 pm 
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So they are the same as Deathstikes, all artillery etc.
Or maybe the skill is in picking targets and positions.
Again, such statements are exagerated E&C.


Hyperbole in some cases, but hardly untrue. We lost the abnility of Deathstrikes to shoot whomever they want unless they activate, and all artillery still need to activate to shoot you.

Support craft can Hold and still rain death on anyone they feel like.

Support Craft represent a very small percentage of the Tau army, an even smaller percentage of the Dark Eldar army, and don't even appear in other lists (yet).  Its effect on the game (positive, negative, or otherwise) is nominal and

Sweet, something to disagree with Mosc on...

Just because there's only a few of them (hell there's always a few in every Tau army it seems) doesn't mean their effect is nominal to the game as a whole simply because they don't show up in a Black Legion vs Orks game.

And even if most people don't play them, which would make them silly since they are cheap and awesome and a no brainer to use, hey does thay sound like Deathstrikes to anyone else? Good thing they were so minor no one wanted to change them... oh, wait...

As a matter of fact we here tend to take more umbrage with single units that break the grain than we do with whole armies, if only because its easier to pick on them specifically.

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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:24 pm 
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I would think they are far larger than their DC would suggest by being airborne (which always seems to be 'less dense' DC wise than their ground counterparts. Perhaps compare to FW thunderhawks?

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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:47 pm 
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I would think they are far larger than their DC would suggest by being airborne


They're not aircraft though.

The Manta's Damage Capacity in 40k is 10, and its damage capacity in FW's Epic list is 9... that's hardly the kind of 1/3rd reduction* in DC that we tend to see for aircraft in Epic.

If you did compare to aircraft (And I disagree that you should), then the Orca would be your touchstone. The Orca is 3DC in 40k, and 2DC in Epic. As a 3DC 'flyer' (Though I disagree that it is a flyer) then your Manta would be a vehicle approximately 1/3rd larger than an Orca... this comparison (Moray/Orca) doesn't work for me because a Manta should then work out to be ~15DC in 40k and it's not, it's only 10DC.

Thus, a Moray isn't a 'flyer', doesn't have the same reduction in DC as a flyer, and is going to be roughly the size of a Baneblade, with less-thick armour (But a super-shield to compensate).


* Or more... the Marauder goes from being a 3DC war engine to a 1DC bomber!

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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:37 pm 
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I always thought DC didn't just represent size but thickness of armour. A Moray might be bigger than a Baneblade but have lighter armour thus having similar DC points because you have to blow more of it away to kill it...

Hyperbole in some cases, but hardly untrue. We lost the abnility of Deathstrikes to shoot whomever they want unless they activate, and all artillery still need to activate to shoot you.

Support craft can Hold and still rain death on anyone they feel like.


Sorry Scarik but isn't this all the same? All the above unit types still get to fire on a Hold action and don't Support craft have to activate to fire?...





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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:22 am 
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Sorry Scarik but isn't this all the same? All the above unit types still get to fire on a Hold action and don't Support craft have to activate to fire?...


Support Craft get to shoot without LOS on a Hold. That alone is an enoormous advantage and it takes away the hard decisions that tactical wargames are all about.

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 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:26 am 
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Umm without LOS? then how do they target something?

Also, the Support craft have to get within firing range. It's still a tactical decision whether to move into firing range knowing full well you'll end up drawing fire from everywhere on your oppoent's turn. Isn't it a tactical decision to manouvre to fire knowing you'll only get perhaps 1 formation returning fire, rather than having 6 do it?





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