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Dark Eldar Updated
Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:42 pm 
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EDIT May 15th -

Follow this thread to get the newest version of the Dark Eldar List. ?This is the FINAL version and will hopefully undergo no changes until next year.

Feel free to comment on this thread, bearing in mind that the thread was also used for the Beta Version and as such have some things mentioned that have already been addressed.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:45 pm 
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I looked it over and I have some questions.  I had a hard time following some of the force selection process.

Why is the Sybarite upgrade up in the "0-1" section instead of with the upgrades?

Is there a Dracon upgrade?

Why are the upgrade costs so much higher than the unit costs in the formations?  For example, Warriors w/ transport are less than 30 points each in the formation, but 50 points each in the upgrades.  I assume that there's some playtest-backed reason but I couldn't picture any issues by just thinking it through.

Is it intentional that the list can take ~2/3 titans and air?  How has it played with a force like that?

On an editorial note, Haemonculi formations are listed as both Assemblies and Covens.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:05 pm 
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Hey Neal, good questions.

I put the Sybarite in the "individual section' just because, well he's an individual.  I suppose it could easily be dumped down in the upgrade section if people are finding that confusing.  Anyone else?

The Dracon is... missing, although I don't know why.  This is precisely why there is a Beta. :p  I'll fix that asap.

The upgrade costs are higher as a fluff thing - there should be some notes in the appendix but we can review them here.  Since the beginning of development (back on SG forum) one of the things we openly discussed was how the Dark Eldar would tend toward smaller formations organizationally and that larger formations, while possible, would be less common.  One way to encourage that type of play (without mandating it) was by tiering the costs.  Over time the price differences have gone down considerably and the formation sizes were increased from 4 to 6 stands.  In other words, its been tweaking in the direction of a more level cost structure anyway, but I didn't want to put too many big changes into the list all at once.

Good catch on the Haemonculi - thanks!

The 2/3 number you are referring to most likely includes Slavebringers, correct?  Otherwise the 1/3 rule should take care of it.

With a heavy air list the Dark Eldar play... well, not so well.  On any other list this would be pretty devastating but the Dark Eldar on the ground have no staying power.  When you have even less points dedicated to the ground forces than you do to the air, the DE ground formations are that much more targeted.  Combine that with LVs and you have a recipe for death.  I suppose you could go for the 'objective grab' army and do nothing until turn 3 but air attacks, but I certainly wouldn't want to hinge my entire game on that strategy,

This newest version, from initial playtesting, is the most balanced list version we've had.  With that said, they still require a lot of work to pull out a win and are unforgiving of mistakes.  

Good questions and catches though.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:08 pm 
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With a heavy air list the Dark Eldar play... well, not so well.  On any other list this would be pretty devastating but the Dark Eldar on the ground have no staying power.  When you have even less points dedicated to the ground forces than you do to the air, the DE ground formations are that much more targeted.  Combine that with LVs and you have a recipe for death.  I suppose you could go for the 'objective grab' army and do nothing until turn 3 but air attacks, but I certainly wouldn't want to hinge my entire game on that strategy,


The plan at 3000 points would be something like:

2 titans
2 Syndicates in Slavebringers
2 other formations in Slavebringers
Assorted upgrades and maybe some Mandrakes (to teleport in on any concentrated flak).  I'd probably be tempted to use a Gate and kashorak just to be annoying (and give a different reserves deployment option if I didn't want to be in aircraft for some reason).
1800 points in titans/air

Use the titans to harass and distract.  With H&R and their speed, that should be easy.  Barring lots of IDF or Deathstrikes, they should be extremely hard to pin (and if you get too close you face their nasty assault).  Aircraft attack to prep targets of opportunity.  Air assaults can be 1 aircraft, or 2 with a land/shoot/air assault combo, depending on the toughness of the target and available prep.

My friend calls this a "conga line" due to the aircraft coming in one after the other (like a conga line), then the end of the line does the assault (the little conga kick).  Next turn the empty aircraft leads (assuming it survives) and you repeat.

It works great with Orks using Landas and Supastompas and it's pretty much the same formula as SM Thawks/Warhounds.  The Tormentors would be better at this (possibly a lot better) than Supastompas or Warhounds, but I suppose he Slavebringers are less durable (1/2-2/3), have less firepower and the assaults would be a less potent.  Of course, you could also use the H&R "rolling assault" - hit, consolidate forward for support, new air assault - if the enemy wasn't careful about position.

It's probably okay.

===

Now that I look at it, you're paying 200 points AND the Raiders for the Slavebringer, which is a pretty steep price for what they do.  That might be why heavy air assault armies aren't doing all that great.

Speaking of which... what are you estimating Raiders at?  Without playing them, I'd guess something like 15-20 points or so.  That wouuld make the effective cost of the other options something like 150-175 for a barge and 250-275 for a Slavebringer.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:37 pm 
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15 would be right around where I would say - maybe as low as 10 though.  Other than increasing your mobility they don't do much and in many instances are a liability.  The term "flying wicker basket" has never rung so true than for the Epic scale Dark Eldar. :p While you can fire and assault from inside of them, rare is the opportunity to do that without risking your Warriors (or whatever) inside.  

As for the conga line, I'll have to try it personally.  I have enough models and enough people to play it against now.

The Dark Eldar are one of those lists where:
On turn 1 your opponent says, "Wow, this is gonna suck."
On turn 2 your opponent says, "Well that went better for me."
On turn 3 your opponent says, "Where did all your mini's go?"

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Magarch
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:25 pm 
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(Moscovian @ May 09 2008,16:37)
QUOTE
15 would be right around where I would say - maybe as low as 10 though.

That's their real price for you ? I'm sorry, but it's very underestimated then. That's not like they're just flying rhinos, after all ;

- They are Antigrav
- They have a 35 cm speed
- They have two weapons, one AP and one pretty sneaky AT
- They allow their transported units to fire and even use their FF in assault ! That's a huge advantage if you use the Antigrav rule against CC troops.

Of course, they're Light Vehicles...But then, they also have a not so bad 4+ Armor (would rather see that for Ravagers only, a 5+ would be more in the line for Raiders). For all of this, I believe their price is more akind to a Chimera's ; and that means 25 points. Even so, I will find this still very cheap.

That's why I strongly dislike giving them for "free".
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:50 pm 
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Every playtest under the sun as shown that the Raiders are either priced around 15 points each or the Warriors are undervalued.  Using the Guardians as a starting point (roughly 18 points each) we had the Dark Eldar Warriors priced at 200 points for the formation of six plus three Raiders).  Even with this seemingly good price as a core formation the Warriors were rarely chosen.  They just died to easily and this pushed me to drop the price on them.

The 'free' Raiders are no more free than Rhinos are, but the list construction and fluff also have to be taken into account.  Dark Eldar are raiders/pirates and rare is the time that they would not be in some type of fast attack vehicle.  The list is built to show this type of activity on the battlefield.  It also makes building an army simpler.

I think you underestimate the LV vulnerability and how fragile the Dark Eldar are in general.  For the first four versions of the list, the DE wins globally could be counted on one hand.  But by all means prove me wrong.  I'd love to be able to chock the losses up to poor play or bad dice.

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Magarch
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:31 pm 
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Honestly, the real trouble is about the warriors. Let's face it, their weapon sucks ; a 15 cm AP5+ is just ridiculous. In fact, I think the Splinter Cannon should be just a light weapon like the Splinter Riffles ; its range is just too low. Give them a Dark Lance and you'll see they'll become much more interesting.

I believe as well you really underestimate the "small special rule" on Raiders. In fact, it shouldn't even exist 'cause it can be very nasty with the Hit and Run rule. Its greatest impact, however, can be seen on the Assault Phase. Try against heavy CC hitters troops, they will just hate it.

Formation size is also another trouble. Giving expensive additionnal units of the same kind is the wrong way, I think. If you want to represent the fact Dark Eldar use small formations, then set their basic size to a very low number (six or eight, like the other eldars in fact) and remove these upgrades. No more warriors for the syndicate formations, for example.

True, Dark Eldars are very frail (and hell I know that)...But that doesn't justify everything. Honestly, the Raider would be just horrible if the transported troops weren't so few and ridiculous in firepower.
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Magarch
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:06 pm 
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(Hena @ May 11 2008,18:26)
QUOTE
The popcorn horde of warriors works quite well. I would suggest trying it out. They give out quite much firepower and with the "fleet of foot" you can get quite nice amount of support fire. As long as opponent isn't filled with indirect weapons (barrage, airplanes), they do quite well in assaults. With the raiders special, you can even use H&R to replace them to another support quite well.

Yup. And since they're not many in their formation, it's easier to hide them from most of opponent's firepower.

Raider special rule shouldn't really be underestimated.  :devil:
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zombocom
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:38 pm 
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I can't understand how anyone could think the DE list is overpowered. It's unbelievably fragile, which is a massive downside. Playtesting seems to suggest it's underpowered, if anything.

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Magarch
 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:42 pm 
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(Hena @ May 12 2008,06:19)
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The point drop for Kabal Syndicate is included and I do think that's not good thing. Sure DE list in general is fragile and hard to play. But that doesn't give any reason to make some formations overpowered. Guardians are 150 points for 6 + Farseer. These are 175 for 6 + 3 Raiders. Guardians need upgrades to be useful, these don't.

Guardians are 7 + Farseer, by the way.  :D

And yup, it's quite strange the upgrades are definitely not interesting for Dark Eldars - 'cause the price is too high. Why bothering adding two warriors and their transport for 100 points when for 75 more you can have a whole new formation of 6 +3 ?

By the way, it isn't just the price. The Raider special rule is soooo good with the Hit and Run Tactics.

But I never said they were overpowered in the whole, heh. I just agree with Hena here.
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