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Confrontation

 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:19 am 
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By the way, I've asked about painting quality before - but what about the material? Is it rubbery as in clickies, or closer to the GW or model kit stuff? And are there any moulding defects such as mould lines visible?

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:13 am 
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(CyberShadow @ Oct. 23 2007,16:30)
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While thier move with Confrontation brought much anger, AT is making a killing in the US and if Confrontation can match it (which I think it will), they will easily make up for the investment.


I disagree about the viability of Confrontation as a pre-paint game. Something that was mentioned on Warseer, and I agree, is that fantasy games are inherently about heroes and personalities. Pre-paints just dont appeal to the same market.

And why is sci-fi less about heroes and personalities? All the "Space Opera" movies as well as most of the major TV series have been all about personalities.

I think I'll have to disagree with you on this as one could as easily use the same arguments for sci-fi.  :;):

The point is:
-you'll still need grunts to make up the bulk of the army
-most of us are not painting those grunts to the same standard as the heroes anyway as it would take a HUGE amount of time
-having the grunts pre-painted saves yet more time.
-having the heroes pre-painted allows you to start playing straight away yet does not prevent you from finishing them to a higher standard later, should you wish so.
-most importantly, it allows people to pick up the game more easily as you don't have to invest a month's worth of free time before you even get to play your first game.

As everybody no doubt knows I am definitely not a hardcore painter so it may be I just find the pre-paints that much easier to accept. Heck, if there were pre-painted epic  I'd buy those in a flash.  :) As it is I just keep accumulating an ever growing pile of unpainted lead & plastic to the point I seriously doubt I'll ever finish those. Were they pre-painted I would not need to have such worries and could just pick a centerpiece model to work on every now and then instead of stressing about how I'll sooner or later need to do the boring chore of painting several hundred identical infantrymen.

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:53 am 
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Perhaps that was a bit of a sweeping statement!  :D  However, I do think that Fantasy players are less likely to get into a pre-paint game than science fiction players. I guess that we will see.

I have heard mixed reviews about the quality of the plastics. Some people are not happy with them, as the AT43 models can have large amounts of flash that has not been removed. However, I have not seen this myself.

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:44 am 
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Hi!

You may be right Cybershadow, but I think the market they are looking at has less to do with "heroes" or hobby aspects of sci-fi versus fantasy and more to do with a fundamental truth.....

...CONVENIENCE!

I would have never in a million years played Confrontation. It did not interest me. Once they said it would be pre-painted and sold in the same vein I picked it up. I'm not alone in this. These games have enormous appeal for hose of us with no time beyond a couple of hours of actually playing the game. I consistently hear from th local layer base as well as online the the games biggest appeal is the ability to buy whatever boxes you choose, open them and they are available for immediate use.

While for a lot of people painting IS the hobby, its no less true that for many painting is a chore, something if given the option to circumvent it would be done so.

The purely business side of me regards their move as a wise one. Why compete with metal minis that need to be painted, for which many companies sell good ones, instead of going for the untapped market of those who don't care for that aspect and just want something to be truly ready out of the box?

While we can wax philosophically on the ills of the "want it now" attitude so common today, its good business to appeal to this crowd.

I'm willing to project they will do well in the long run.

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:43 am 
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I hope that you are right. I dont necessarily have any issue with the economic or logical decisions made by Rackham. My problem with the current situation is the lack of concern it displays to the current customer base.

Rackhams key selling point was the wonderful metal miniatures, with fantastic paint jobs. Initially, it was THIS that cause discussion about the company. Their customer base was focussed solely on this market.

By switching to pre-paints, the company have in one strike alienated their entire customer group and generated ill feeling. If they had simply produced both metal and pre-painted, then I am fairly sure that this move would have been extremely popular - although I have heard that Rackham have been forced to sell their metal production facility and are now out-sourcing their metal miniatures, while they exist!

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:46 am 
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Why couldn't they serve both customers?

Part pre-paint, part non-paint.
Customer decides.

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:22 pm 
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Originally, the idea was to have the rank and file as pre-paints, and the characters as bare metal. I am not sure why they changed their minds about this - although I suspect that neither set of players would have liked the results since painters only have half a force, and pre-painters have to paint their leaders.

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:27 pm 
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(Mojarn Piett @ Oct. 24 2007,08:13)
QUOTE
The point is:
-you'll still need grunts to make up the bulk of the army
-most of us are not painting those grunts to the same standard as the heroes anyway as it would take a HUGE amount of time
-having the grunts pre-painted saves yet more time.
-having the heroes pre-painted allows you to start playing straight away yet does not prevent you from finishing them to a higher standard later, should you wish so.
-most importantly, it allows people to pick up the game more easily as you don't have to invest a month's worth of free time before you even get to play your first game.

As everybody no doubt knows I am definitely not a hardcore painter so it may be I just find the pre-paints that much easier to accept. Heck, if there were pre-painted epic ?I'd buy those in a flash. ?:) As it is I just keep accumulating an ever growing pile of unpainted lead & plastic to the point I seriously doubt I'll ever finish those. Were they pre-painted I would not need to have such worries and could just pick a centerpiece model to work on every now and then instead of stressing about how I'll sooner or later need to do the boring chore of painting several hundred identical infantrymen.

Hi Mojarn

You have hit the nail on the head for me. I enjoy painting but find it difficult to squueze enough time in. Playing with good quality pre-painted figures means that I can and would stilll paint. But that I would be painting for fun rather than feeling I have to finish an army before I can field it.

That means painting becomes something to be enjoyed rather than endured. Which ironically enough means I get more painting done because look forward to it.

Cheers

James

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:35 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Oct. 25 2007,06:43)
QUOTE
I hope that you are right. I dont necessarily have any issue with the economic or logical decisions made by Rackham. My problem with the current situation is the lack of concern it displays to the current customer base.

Rackhams key selling point was the wonderful metal miniatures, with fantastic paint jobs. Initially, it was THIS that cause discussion about the company. Their customer base was focussed solely on this market.

By switching to pre-paints, the company have in one strike alienated their entire customer group and generated ill feeling. If they had simply produced both metal and pre-painted, then I am fairly sure that this move would have been extremely popular - although I have heard that Rackham have been forced to sell their metal production facility and are now out-sourcing their metal miniatures, while they exist!

Hi!

No doubt. As i mentioned before it was handled poorly.

Although, I'm not really sure how they could of done the switch without angering people.

The simple truth is that they realized they could get more revenues with the AT model applied to Confrontation that what it is now, so they dumped the old scheme for the new one.

Time will tell if their gamble was the correct one.

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:43 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Oct. 25 2007,13:22)
QUOTE
Originally, the idea was to have the rank and file as pre-paints, and the characters as bare metal. I am not sure why they changed their minds about this - although I suspect that neither set of players would have liked the results since painters only have half a force, and pre-painters have to paint their leaders.

There's nothing to stop players personalising the paint jobs over the top of the prepainted stuff though right?

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:01 pm 
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I have just found these preview pictures:

Griffin riders and fusiliers:
http://www.wargamesempire.co.uk/erol.html#8752X0

Wolfen warriors and yet more Griffin cavalry:
http://www.wargamesempire.co.uk/erol.html#8752X0

If the quality of the new pre-painted figures is half as these preview pictures then I am convinced!! These look awesome

Looks like Rackham is continuing the love shown to their 2 oldest factions, which luckily for me are my 2 favourite factions (just edging out Lions of Alahan into 3rd place).

The only difficulty could be could I paint up my metal figures to fit in and loook this good.

Cheers

James

EDIT PS- the links don't seem to work- they only take you to wargame empire main confrontation page- but follow the easy to find links and you will be rewarded!!

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:23 am 
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(vanvlak @ Oct. 24 2007,00:19)
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By the way, I've asked about painting quality before - but what about the material? Is it rubbery as in clickies, or closer to the GW or model kit stuff? And are there any moulding defects such as mould lines visible?

They're somewhere in between GW's plastic and the clicky stuff V. Closer to the GW side of the scale though IMO.

It has just enough flex that things don't snap off if they get moderately bent or flexed but it's stiff enough in my experience with the AT-43 figs that they hold their shape pretty well.

And most of my AT-43 figs don't have any visible mold lines or if they do they're minor and in not readily visible spots... I'd actually say ther appears to have been some attempt to clean them off before painting.

The plastic also holds additional paint or washes extremely well I might add.

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:25 am 
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(blackhorizon @ Oct. 25 2007,04:46)
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Why couldn't they serve both customers?

Part pre-paint, part non-paint.
Customer decides.

The simple explanation is it doubles the number of SKU's that have to be produced/warehoused and then stocked by retailers.

And it more than likely wouldn't double the profits on the line for anyone in the distribution chain so...

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:38 am 
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Thanks Heresiarch. Not too bad. The one glitch might be paying for a painted miniature when you're going to paint it again. Trick is to use the existing paint and impove it, I guess.

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 Post subject: Confrontation
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:18 am 
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(wargame_insomniac @ Oct. 25 2007,23:01)
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I have just found these preview pictures

Be careful. Rackham has a tradition of showing 'pre-paint' miniatures which have been overpainted by their studio staff. The end results are often not recognisable. That said, the general opinion is that Rackhams pre-paints are the best quality out there.

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