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IonHeads

 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:36 pm 
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(Honda @ Aug. 15 2006,07:36)
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So it's fish or cut bait. I'd like to hear from somebody who supports no AA attacks from the Ionheads what their counter proposal is? If a counter proposal is not to be forthcoming, then take the option off the table and we can move on to either reducing the range or leaving as is.

I'll second that... or is it, "I'll 10th that?"

:)

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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:47 pm 
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(Hena @ Aug. 15 2006,07:53)
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I could say that I've asked numerous times is that AA needed? So far nobody answers. I'm arguing that tau AA is probably sufficient with just barracudas and skyrays (do note the word probably). I'd like to see some games trying it out. Since I don't have Tau i obviously cannot do it.

Hena,

Answer: yes

I would say you've received multiple answers of yes its needed, and cases have been sited. Perhaps you should browse the thread again. I think the claims are rather obvious at this point.

1) I agree with Honda

2) I agree with Honda

3) I've used your claim to AA/AT/AP as non-existent in 40K, etc and given you examples otherwise.

4) I've explained that several times in E:A, we give AA to units which do not have AA in 40K

5) by your own explanation of which armies have good / adequate AA, I've given you examples of why Tau do not "match" other armies AA... its the same reason of why we don't tone down the hand to hand combat of the bugs to match the Tau. Simply put, some armies require more of something to stay viable.

6) Tau are playing almost up to the 50% level, they are actually still under 50% to most claims. That means we are in the right ball park - in general. That includes when attempting to defend against air assault. Tau used to get blown out by an air assault.

7) If a list is working, and this one is - its not up to us to change the list to appease an antagonist whom which may think something is stupid or unrequired. Those are valid opinions, but that's about all they are. If a antagonist would like to see change, then its up to said individual to prove their case. So far, your case has been closed in my book. If you do not agree, please site further claims for argument.

If not, "...cut bait." -- Hondaism

Cheers,





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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:42 am 
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Speaking as an Eldar player, I think the Ionheads do need that AA.  I've seen Skyrays taken with Broadside formations and AMHCs, and I've never had much trouble prepping them with a Void Spinner or Fire Prism barrage, suppressing the Skyray (with some fancy maneuvering on the part of my aircraft).  Ionheads are guaranteed blast markers on any aircraft that comes close to them (whereas Skyrays can get suppressed).  That, not actual AA defense, is their main use, in my opinion.  They don't have the firepower to ward off my Vampires - I usually just charge them with the bombers and break them asap - but they make it harder to bring the aircraft on in later turns.  It also becomes necessary to deal with them in order to stop stacking up BMs in an air-heavy list, so the Tau player has a way to force the enemy's hand - they have to take out the ionheads, so you can set things up to make that hard for them.


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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:59 pm 
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Hena, the general downgrader of all but marines .


Well at least we agree on the marines part.  :cool:

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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:59 pm 
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Gotchaye,

I think that's a fair assessment of the current state.

Hena,

We'll at least agree that Marines need a face lift. :)

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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:45 pm 
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AA cover progression:

Eldar, with Tau right behind them (but Eldar should have better planes, Tau on par with Imperial air).  Then IG, followed by Orks ('Quantity has a quality all it's own'), with 'Nids in last place.  I really feel that Marines should have air cover on par with IG (and they sure aren't there now), perhaps a little better (after all, Marine infantry are the best shock troopers in the known galaxy, and need to be protected from the big threats to them).

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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm 
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I tend to field the two following types of HH formations:
- Railheads + Skyray (AT focus)
- Ionheads alone (AP focus)

Both formations do their job well and provide reasonable air cover. I would not want that to change for the moment.

For the record Eldar have better AA: 3 fireprisms provide the same air cover as 6 of our Ionheads. And we don't have the lance special rule on top of that.

On the 40K side, sure it's not written in the fluff but the ion cannon has a high rate of fire which makes it a very good candidate for AA use.






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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:51 pm 
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There's more to good AA abilities than high RoF, though.  You also need fast turret traverse (needed with a fast-moving tank designed to engage at close range anyway, but that's not really in the Tau design concept), and elevation controls (possibly included with the Ion Cannon mount, but the 40k model has a limited elevation capability), as well as the sensors to detect aircraft.  While Hammer's Slammers have tanks that are capable of attacking aircraft (and satellites!), that's a function of the data net and AI controls.  We could assume sensors/datanets up to the task are canon to the Tau concept (and I do), but the max elevation of an Ion Cannon is less than 45* (I don't have a model near to hand to give a more accurate number right now).  An AA gun needs to have about a 75* elevation in order to semi-effectively engage aircraft.  (An aircraft 1000m above ground level 1km away needs an elevation angle of 45* just to get close to hitting, and needs closer to 50* elevation to actually hit with a solid projectile).

If we need to remove AA from the Ionheads for balance purposes, that's OK, but the list seems to be pretty well balanced right now.  Removing AA from the Ionheads would be serious change to the list, that I don't think is warranted for balance purposes.

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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:52 pm 
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The problem that I see is that the AA ability of the IonHead results in a standard Armoured cadre having at least one IonHead. This is something that I would like dictated by play style or tactical use rather than 'throw in the obligatory IonHead without thinking'. My problem is not necessarily that the IonHead is very good at its job of seeing off the enemy aircraft, but that it has become a non-thinking choice, an inclusion in a formation without the role of the formation dictating its inclusion.

My general problem with this is that there is a unit with AA which can be included in a core Cadre as one of six units. This makes it prevalent. Sure, it only has a one in six chance of scoring a blast marker, but these things are jacks of all.

While dropping the AA ability of the IonHead will drop the ability of the Tau force to deal with air assaults, SkyRays can be added to Hammerhead Cadres and Contingents, and this would force the Tau player to think about whether the formation required it. It may throw the 'AA spotlight' on the SkyRay, but I dont think that this is a bad thing.

I dont necessarily agree that dropping the IonHeads AA ability will move the enphasis or ability of the Tau force to deal with aircraft. However, I am aware that doinf so would result in the SkyRay being the only ground Tau unit able to deal with enemy aircraft.

As for stats, I like the higher rate of fire for the Ion Cannon, with LitS's suggestion: 2x AP4+/AT5+.

While I like the compromise of a reduced AA range of 30cm, it does not really tackle the issue that concerns me the most. It does limit the impact of the AA IonHeads, but my feeling is that it will not changethe composition or decision making process when selecting formations - that of adding an IonHead for air cover, even if this is not required or a part of the formations role on the forthcoming game.

Currently, I am still just throwing ideas around and seeing which fly. I am accutely aware of the impacts that this may have to this list (could it be that Tactica and I agree on this???), but I am trying to keep an open mind. If we can resolve this by removing the IonHeads AA ability, without throwing the rest of the list into confusion, then I would like to do it.

My suggestion is that a few games are played with the above change to the IonHeads, as well as the porposal that AA range is reduced to 30cm... even better, how about we put together a few lists, before and after the proposed changes and post them to see if the army composition is changed (I am aware that lists alone wont give information on the performance of the force). This is floated to consider the options and make sure that everything is at least considered.

Perhaps a new, dedicated AA-only tank could be built... finally, a vehicle that I can call my own in the list! JG created all the cool stuff and I want to make my mark on future Tau players! :D

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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:19 am 
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CS - I would propose we reduce it to 45cm instead of 30cm. This is a step down from 60cm but it still reduces the coverage while giving that solitary Ionhead that people supposedly ALWAYS seem to take a chance of hitting a plane with 45cm attack range as most have.

If you take the AA away entirely it will be a double strike vs Tau when the Air rules Neal Hunt is proposing come into effect - as it is,  reducing the range is already 1 strike. Remember, in NH's rules set aircraft are also becoming more powerful....


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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:30 pm 
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CS,

It should be pretty straight forward to test out on your own.

Simply assemble some common Orc, marine and Eldar assault heavy lists from air that you see contending well enough in tourny's.

Then, build a Tau force that you think can deal with them.

Tune the Tau force until you can adequately deal with lists in 50% of the games. Now you have the necessary amount of Skyray's with no ion-heads in the list.

Note the amount of units you are forced to remove in order to get the adequate amount of Skyray's in the list.

Now, play against some bug, chaos, ork and IG lists that have only counter measures for aircraft, not rely on aircraft themselves, but may still splash one or two formations of air.

See if the "necessary amount of skyray list" which was winning 50% of its games, can conceptually (or actually) hold its own with the tourny list of IG, orks and bugs that ?have miminal reliance on air assets.

Postulate:

I think you'll find rather quickly that removing AA only from ion-heads:

1) requires you to cut other stuff from your current list so you can add in the skyrays to compensate for the loss added requirment of paying for 2+ skyrays that you were not previously taking. This means either loss of activations or at minimum, loss of ground force effectiveness and unit count out of existing formations.

2) Reducing the effectiveness of your army against ground formations as you've removed points from somewhere to pay for the additional 2+ skyrays you'll need to add in means you'll have to increase the effectiveness of some ground formation(s) to compensate for the loss. Which formations will be compensated by a net 'increase' to maintain the balance we currently have?

Example:
2 Skyrays @ 75 points added to 'some formation' are nowhere near as effective as a seperate formation of piranhas or two seperate formations of gun drones for the same cost against ground formations... and I would rather have an upgrade of 125 points for hammerheads over two skyrays for 150 when I'm considering ground force effectiveness - but something has to go in order to 'pay' for the skyrays, so something must be 'given back' to counter their impact to the ground force net effect.

3) The ion-heads losing their AA benefit will also become less appealing without their AA, so either stat change or points change to make them viable again, perhaps the 2x will distinguish them enough but I suspect a points adjustment down will be in order here.

+ + +

So by solving one 'issue' you'll have created a few others.

Again, the test above is going to be needed to see the true impact the list change will have.

Bascially - once you figure out what you need to take to sustain yourself from the air assault - will that list now maintain itself against non-air threats?

I dare say, it will not from a conseptual stand point since I feel the Tau list is already hovering around the 40% / 60% win/loss ratio presently.

This proposition is perhaps needed, but it will further the divide, not help it - regardless of what the actual ratios are.

+ + +

Seperate AA tank? I think that's a bad idea.

Be mindful, the Skyray is supposed to hit marked targets (aircraft or land vehicles) on 2+ with its seekers from core design, that's why its so deadly there and the premier of AA in the franchise.

removing it from being good at what it does just to make a new tank that's good at what the Skyray is supposed to do - really is bad on top of bad. Not the right solution at all IMHO. A new unit for something shis should do is questionable in its own right considering your premis, but its further diluted in potential when another unit means more points invested in AA and more points removed from effective ground formations... bad, bad, badd!

Cheers,





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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:08 pm 
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As for stats, I like the higher rate of fire for the Ion Cannon, with LitS's suggestion: 2x AP4+/AT5+.


Not to sound to harsh, but why on earth would I want to take this tank (assuming the current version had no AA on it) vs. the current version?

Your killing my ability to shoot infantry on the move (keep in mind that most of them are going to be under cover) and you've (not you, but us) nerfed a fairly respectable AT value as well.

I really don't like this proposal. The current version is much better at dealing with most threats where this version is really only good for shooting at infantry. I don't consider this a good move and I'm still struggling to see where the AA is causing a game balance issue.

Remember, this whole discussion is over 1 BM per aircraft in range of a 6 ship formation of Ionheads.

I think we're spending a lot of time looking to find things to fix, even though they do not appear to be broken.

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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:24 pm 
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(Honda @ Aug. 28 2006,23:08)
QUOTE
I think we're spending a lot of time looking to find things to fix, even though they do not appear to be broken.

Hear hear...


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 Post subject: IonHeads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:26 pm 
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CS,


I'd suggest you link this issue to the SMS & Devilfish thread going on:

Part of the suggested change is that SMS should be downgraded to AP5+ on all gunships, meaning it will hinder all Hammerhead variants, and more particularly the Ionhead in its more pronounced AP role.

So:
- If you plan to downgrade SMS to AP5+ throgout the list, I'd recommend not removing AA from the Ionhead at the same time for it will be a bit harsh :-(

- If you don't plan to touch SMS stats, I would be for the 'try something new approach', therefore encourage people to playtest Ionheads without AA.


cheers






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