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Marine Suggestions
nealhunt	Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:43 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Quote (Hena @ 30 May 2006 (17:06)) Interested on being the official marine champion and pushing those updates like TRC did with the updates to siege masters? Oddly, it seems I'm the closest thing to it.  I've been collecting various suggestions for the ERC in the absence of an active SM champion, along with a rough mental tally of how much support the various suggestions have. I wouldn't mind, but I'm not sure I'm qualified enough to be SM champion.  I have largely branched off into other army testing until just recently when I've gotten back into SMs.  To be honest, even though I enjoy them I'm not a very good SM player and I'm afraid that may color my perceptions on what needs or doesn't need to be done to the army. _________________ Neal
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nealhunt	Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:16 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Quote (Chroma @ 30 May 2006 (17:20)) Quote (nealhunt @ 30 May 2006 (15:17)) Vindicators at 25cm move. I just gotta ask, why 25cm and not 30cm like all the other "Rhino-chassis" variants? Vindicators have historically been slower than other Rhino variants. They have additional armor that is not reflected in the 40K armor values because they don't reflect things in 3D.  In the city fight rules, Vindicators get special advantages due to thicker top armor.  IIRC, they get advantages against mines, too (though I could be misremembering that). Movement values in Epic are not straight line movement.  It's tactical movement with a lot of starts and stops and potentially tight maneuvering.  I know the "top speed" of the vehicles in the technical specs are a within a few mph of each other but a lower tactical speed can easily be justified on the basis of inferior acceleration and handling which are more directly applicable to tactical movement. _________________ Neal
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:41 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Had a 4 player game tonight with me and ginger being marines against the evil squats and guard. Hunter wise wider accessability is all thats needed, currently with only 2-3 availible they are suppressed and dealt with. Make that 4-5 and you are laughing. Also a boost for armour. I have a very boring file of my dream marine army list which got modified a bit after the CC tournament, I can post it if people are interested. Edit - that is it's not an army to use but the list to choose it from. Something else - was going to try it last night but didn't need it, should rhinos, raiders, preds etc get an invulnerable save? Their greatest enemy is MW/K weapons and this is a small boost. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Revenant	Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 11:27 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 3:53 pm Posts: 8	Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 31 May 2006 (00:41)) I have a very boring file of my dream marine army list which got modified a bit after the CC tournament, I can post it if people are interested. I am...
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:54 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Marine review Editted following a couple of experiments and realisation of the lack of fearless This is base on the old list of ideas on the epic forum, ideas here and my experiences with marines to date. Its been written over about a year parallel to the siege stuff, if only because marines and Guard were my most regular opponents and alternative armies I played the most. Side note I see marines as being able to be broken into several different lists. Codex - Aerospace. The generic marine army. Variant chapters - Imperial Fists (Siege/ground army), Black Templars (marine horde), Salamanders (marine firepower), Blood Angels (marine assault), Space Wolves (umm, assault?), Iron Hands (marine tech), ?White Scars (fast attack), Dark Angels (would probably just be themed codex), Ultramaines (full chapter, vets, everything with limits ? in essence an expanded Codex list for style rather than any real advantage). With the exception of Space Wolves, Black Templars and Blood Angels the rest would be codex with slight variations to emphasise one style of fighting over another and would have a chapter assigned for flavour rather than rigidity. Bearing that in mind stuff I would love to see for marines can find its way into other lists. Stuff like Land Raiders and Vindicators getting the Land Raider and Vindicator upgrade respectively, dreadnaught formations etc can all go elsewhere (most likely a less air assault focused list). Changes to core rules affecting marines. Transports not taking objectives. I reckon this will happen and downgrade the effectiveness of marine air assets. Experimental hit rules This will have two consequences. One terminators and characters get more powerful. Two so does the opposition, with CC against some armies being an exciting form of suicide. So with the above in mind here is a unit by unit review of marines, then an army list review. Special rules ATSKNF Change to include marine Leaders removing two blast markers instead of one. Also marines can no longer be outnumbered (just vastly outnumbered). Note this does not apply to allied Titan units. The Leader change I?m all for as it makes Leaders in the marines that much more important ? flavourful and a boost. The outnumbering thing I must say I?m not that much a fan of, but it seems everyone else is. I must admit though it makes doing a non air assault army a lot more viable. Edit - note I reckon it shouldn't be used - though to date no recent experience playing hordes. Units Terminators, Tactical?s, Assault, Devastator?s, Scouts, Dreadnaughts, Bikes, Land Speeders and variants, Whirlwind, Hunter, Rhino, Razorback with Heavy Bolters, Predator Annihilator, Spacecraft, Landing Craft, Thunderhawk, No changes (apart from the errata on the landing crafts Heavy Bolters). New Unit - Supreme Commander Character Power Weapon, (base contact), Assault Weapons, Macro-weapon, Extra Attack (+1) Notes: Invulnerable Save, Supreme Commander, Fearless To avoid the two leader problem separate out the SC from the other characters, and surely these chaps have the position in the hierarchy demanding their own entry and picture! Commander Character Power Weapon, (base contact), Assault Weapons, Macro-weapon, Extra Attack (+1) Smite, (15cms), Small Arms, Macro-weapon, Extra Attack (+1) Notes: Space Marine Commanders can be one of five types: Captains, Librarians, Techmarines, Chaplains or Apothecaries. All are Characters and have an Invulnerable Save, Leader and Fearless abilities. Captains also have the Commander special ability. Librarians and Techmarines have a Smite attack (listed in the weapon section above). Chaplains and Apothacaries are Inspiring. Slight change to wording to include Techmarines and Medics. Alternatively simply stick a note in about ?counts as? for Techs and Medics in the special rules section with a note about why. Attack bike Speed goes up to 35cm. I don?t think anything else is needed with these chaps. You get LV in return for the ability to lay BM?s and if you want a full formation you can tear around shooting up infantry. Vindicator Speed goes up to 25cm Again nothing else needed. If it can keep up it is worth a lot more. Land Raider FF increases to 4+ Any points issues dealt with in the army list section. Razorback with lascannon Drop FF to 6+ It is simply far more popular than the Heavy bolter version (unless you want scouts to go infantry hunting). This balances it a bit. Predator Destructor FF increases to 4+ To give it a slight boost verses its more popular lascannon brethren. Thunderhawk Interceptor Include a Fighter Bomber version. No transport capacity, FF, CC (as it can?t land) same weapons. Why? I hate having no air cover. Marines must have more than Hunters and a total reliance on the fleet. Crusading would be a no-no. The chapter would get strafed up the first time it faced an air force with hardened dispersed bunkers. Drop Pod Lose the all the stats bar the Weapons and the notes. Just to reduce confusion ? as a marker it doesn?t need them! Whirlwind Yes I know I said no change but wouldn?t we all love it better if it had 60cm base range? Marauder Bombers Fix them! (See the siege list for suggested fixes.) Titans Rocket launcher to go to BP3. Gatling Blaster and Turbo lasers to go to 60cm range. Army List GT Special Rule ? Transport Reword to remove the FAQ entry (I?m very bad at re-wording!). No formation may purchase more transport capacity than they need. So for instance Devestators are limited too 2 Land Raiders or 1 Land Raider, 1 Razorback etc. They may not get 3 Land Raiders, or 2 Land Raiders and a Razorback, or 5 Razorbacks etc. After any transports have been purchased any marine formation with access to razorbacks may take enough Rhinos to carry the remaining ground pounding units into battle. You may not have ?spare? rhinos. Alternatively the formation may be mounted in Drop pods as long as all the units can be transported in ?pods. Codex Astartes Army List The following list is representative of the vast majority of chapters fighting on Armageddon. Codex Astartes Space Marine armies have a strategy rating of 5. All Space Marine and Titan Legion formations have an initiative rating of 1+. Imperial Navy aircraft formations have an initiative rating of 2+. The ?They Shall Know No Fear? rule applies to all Space Marine formations only (see 5.1.1). Space Marine Detachments 175 points - Assault - Four Assault units - Commander, Vindicator 200 points ? Bike - Five Bike units - Commander, Attack Bike 250 points - Devastator - Four Devastator units - Commander, Razorbacks, Dreadnought, Hunter, Land Raiders 375 points - Land Raider - Four Land Raiders - Commander, Vindicator, Hunter 200 points - Land Speeder - Five Land Speeders - Commander, Typhoon/Tornado 375 points - Landing Craft - One Landing Craft 275 points - Predators - Four Predators ?(may choose either Annihilators or Destructors or a combination of the two) - Commander, Vindicator, Hunter 175 points - Scout - Four Scout units - Commander, Razorbacks, Sniper 200 points - Strike Cruiser - One Strike Cruiser - Battle Barge 300 points - Tactical - Six Tactical units - Commander, Dreadnought, Razorbacks, Hunter, Vindicator 350 points - Terminator - Four Terminator units - Commander, Land Raiders, Hunter, Dreadnought, Vindicator 200 points - Thunderhawk - One Thunderhawk Gunship - Interceptor 275 points - Vindicator - Four Vindicators ? Commander, Hunter 300 points - Whirlwind - Four Whirlwinds ? Commander, Hunter Changes Land Raiders, predators ?and Vindicators formation cost dropped by 25 points. Terminators and Scouts increased by 25 points. Landing craft increased by 25 points. Hunters more widely available. Whirlwinds lose commander upgrade. Why? The armour is weak, even with stat upgrades. Conversely Terminators get better with the new allocation rules and Scouts can be abused as drop pod attacks and cheap activations. Landing craft need to go up if armour goes down to ensure that the armoured air assault doesn?t get more powerful. Increased access to hunters with armour formations boosts them and encourages the choice of armour. Space Marine Upgrades Free - Attack Bike - Replace any number of Bike units with 1 Attack Bike each 150 points - Battle Barge - Replace Strike Cruiser with Battle Barge 50 points - Commander - Add one Space Marine Commander character to a unit in the formation. One Commander in the army may be replaced with a Supreme Commander for a further 50 points 50 points each - Dreadnought - Add one to four Dreadnoughts 75 points - Hunter - Add one Hunter 75 points each - Land Raiders (Transports) - Add Land Raiders 25 points each - Razorbacks (Transports) ? Add Razorbacks 75 points ? Interceptor ? Replace a Thunderhawk with a Thunderhawk interceptor 10 points each - Sniper ? Each Scout unit may be given Sniper 25 points each ? Typhoon - Replace any number of Land Speeders with Typhoons 10 points each - Tornado - Replace any number of Land Speeders with Tornados 50 points each - Vindicator - Add one or two Vindicators Changes Land Raiders and Vindicators all get a 25 point drop as they are slightly overpriced (Land Raiders give a formation a mixed AP/AT ability that normally isn?t as good as a specialisation, Vindicators specialist weapons and not widely applicable to GT scenario). Dreadnaughts are available in greater numbers to give a formation that gives up rhinos more staying power. Interceptor is there for native interception capability. Sniper ability more widely available and cheaper, partly as a compensation for less abusable higher scout cost, but also to copy 40k a bit (not to mention not having to remember which is the sniper stand). Imperial Navy Aircraft available on Armageddon 150 points Two Thunderbolt Fighters 300 points Two Marauder Bombers I await the Marauder fix. Titan legion Battlegroups 850 points One Warlord Class Titan 650 points One Reaver Class Titan 275 points For one Warhound or 500 points for two Warhounds go up because they are damn good and to stop the temptation of marines to take 4 at 3000 points. I accept they give away some flexibility as a pair and this option doesn't seem to be abused. Its possible that ground wise marines take a kicking still - in which case I would propose an Invulnerable save for all the Rhino varients and Land Raiders to represent their reliability, ease of repair and rugedness. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Hojyn	Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:17 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am Posts: 876 Location: Brest - France	I really like your list, Chris! I think all your suggestions are good, and would like to see them implemented. BUT... (there's always a "but"   ), why not give the Assault Marines a transport option (Rhinos only) as well? I'd really like to be able to use drop pods with them, or to be able to have a more surable formation if I choose not to use an air assault tactic.
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Ilushia	Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:03 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am Posts: 1189	Quote (Hojyn @ 01 June 2006 (09:17)) I really like your list, Chris! I think all your suggestions are good, and would like to see them implemented. BUT... (there's always a "but" ? ), why not give the Assault Marines a transport option (Rhinos only) as well? I'd really like to be able to use drop pods with them, or to be able to have a more surable formation if I choose not to use an air assault tactic. I think this one's a concession to 40K scale combat. In which the jump packs make them too bulky to ride in vehicles. They can deep-strike in 40K scale, but that represents them being dropped off by THawks, Air Assaults basically. I'm OK with Assault Troops remaining specialized for the most part. Though something like "Drop Pods" as an upgrade for them and Terminators would be very nice, IMHO. Lets you mount those units in Drop Pods for say +5 or +10 per base?
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:03 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Quote (Hojyn @ 01 June 2006 (09:17)) BUT... (there's always a "but" ? ), why not give the Assault Marines a transport option (Rhinos only) as well? I'd really like to be able to use drop pods with them, or to be able to have a more surable formation if I choose not to use an air assault tactic. With the assault boost they are more effective. he problem with A marines is with transports they become the bees knees. They live to air assault. That has built in dissadvantages. Image if you could drop pod them in? A 30cm charge range means you are laughing. They are tricky to use and currently lose out to terminators. A terminator price jump however and I think they are back in the game. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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nealhunt	Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:10 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	I'm pretty much of the same mind as TRC, though I disagree with a few items. I think a foot-slogger assault marine that can ride in a Rhino or Drop Pod is a good idea, but it might be better to save it for one of the minor-variation chapters.  For example, I think the Ravenguard has whatever chapter trait it is that allows Tactical Marines to take CC/pistol instead of a bolter.  That would be a great unit to include in a Ravengaugrd list - flavorful, easy to write stats for (assault marines), not needing a conversion. Also, I would like to see Terminators in LRs be a viable option but I'm not sure how to do it.  Termies giving up the Teleport should be worth something.  They are effectively giving up some of their point value in addition to paying for the LR.  The problem is how do you write a point-adjusted LR cost for them that does not make the list fiddly? I think a 0-2 Terminator formation restriction is not unwarranted.  It would stop the "deathwing" army style but frankly, that should be an exception rather than an option available to every SM chapter. _________________ Neal
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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Marine Suggestions Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:05 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London

Quote (nealhunt @ 01 June 2006 (15:10)) I think a foot-slogger assault marine that can ride in a Rhino or Drop Pod is a good idea, but it might be better to save it for one of the minor-variation chapters. ?For example, I think the Ravenguard has whatever chapter trait it is that allows Tactical Marines to take CC/pistol instead of a bolter. ?That would be a great unit to include in a Ravengaugrd list - flavorful, easy to write stats for (assault marines), not needing a conversion. Yes, foot-slogger Assault marines in rhinos for another chapter (I reckon they would be space wolves (grey hunters) ). What bits incidentally don't you like (I can tell you don't like the Thunderhawk interceptor, but godamit I feel wrong using the navy for ground support!)? Also, I would like to see Terminators in LRs be a viable option but I'm not sure how to do it. ?Termies giving up the Teleport should be worth something. ?They are effectively giving up some of their point value in addition to paying for the LR. ?The problem is how do you write a point-adjusted LR cost for them that does not make the list fiddly? Well i've tested the idea above (Land Raider upgrade costing 75 points) and it works well. Terminators with Land Raiders then cost 650 points (350 base, 300 for transports). This is fine, makes them an important formation, can be droped in a lander if you feel up to it or drive around and pput out some fearsome firepower not to mention all have thick rear armour and 4+ RA. The only other thing the 75 point Land Raider upgrade affects is Devestators, but since they can now only take 2, 400 points for 4 Devestators and 2 land raiders is in no way excessive. I think a 0-2 Terminator formation restriction is not unwarranted. ?It would stop the "deathwing" army style but frankly, that should be an exception rather than an option available to every SM chapter.

I do, I don't think more terminator formations has an exponetial increase in effctiveness the more there are. They are simply excellent troops. A points increase solves this for however many you wish to take.
If they are too powerful limiting them to two formations will pretty much ensure every marine army has 2 and their effect will be to give a bigger boost to small games than large games.

If you must limit them limit them to 0-5 as thats the first company (of course I've done something like this with the Ultramariens chapter list - in fact I wonder if Andy would like it for a house rules article?).