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Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:07 am 
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I think 1+ init is in line with other races and easier to write for a similar effect.

If special planetfall is too much (I would have it happen reguardless of Tau or enemy spacecraft movements) what would be the effect of teleport?

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Xisor
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 12:57 pm 
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I think the Manta Planetfall should be regardless of enemy spacecraft too[so both the Manta *and* enemy stuff could planetfall in the same turn]. Otherwise, treat it as planetfalling.

That is: preplot coordinates and time of arrival before game, activate to bring it in.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:05 pm 
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It's possible it could just have the Teleport ability as well as Planetfall. Teleport being it's ability to fly high up into the atmosphere and descend quickly. The same argument about 'Ships which can self-drop' could be made of many of the Eldar ships as well. The Vampire Raider particularly (since it's the only one which can carry anything). I think that teleport would work fine, really. It means that the Tau can wait until the right time and place to drop it in. For instance, drop it in at the start of a turn within 15cm of a Battlesuit group with Shas'O and then activate that unit, who can do Coordinated Fire with it. Teleport means you can always get it where you want it, more or less when you want it. And very few armies can seriously damage something as tough as it is in less then 3 activations. Even with 3 activations it's hard. Shadowswords come to mind to do it, but the ship has a 4+ save against each TK hit from them.

Alternatively you could teleport it down then move and unload from it, firing the whole group on an enemy formation (Potentially allowing you to 'add' Teleport to other formations by storing them onboard). I'd like this better, as it allows for more flexibility by the Tau without feeling like a last-second 'Oh, and my ship shows up to off your titan'.

I do agree with making it 1+ Init. It's a titan-equiv, and all of those are 1+ in every other army, so it feels right for them to be 1+.
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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 3:55 pm 
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I was not thinking of the Vampire, but the Thunderhawk as a direct equivalent to the Manta (used as attack craft in BFG, transport craft...).

I must admit that I am not convinced about teleport. Not for any mechanistic reasons, but more because it feels wrong to have a vessel with a transport capacity teleporting in.

My current favouring is:

Initiative raised to 1+.

Manta can Planetfall direct, without requiring a space vessel. Arrange Planetfall turn arrival as usual before the game. Manta Planetfalls are not affected by enemy space craft arriving in the same turn.

This keeps things nice and simple. However, with these two additions, I would like to keep the points values unchanged at 850 points - at least while we test the new rules.

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Xisor
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 7:19 pm 
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You've my full support there CS.

As a side note on comparison to the Thunderhawk. The THawk's fluff description is still one as a short ranged attack craft. The Manta is, unlike every other attack craft in the game of BFG, a borderline Starship in itself. As I mentioned before, I'm fully convinced that Mantas would be used as an equivalent to Imperial 'System Ships', basically starships that cannot do interstellar journies. THawks aren't these. Neither, as far as I can tell, are Morays.

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baronpiero
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 9:01 pm 
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By the way, here is the only change I would make to the manta's profile, as I find the auxiliary weapons lack of bite.

Replace 1xTracer missile with:

2x Hunter Missiles 75cm AA5+ -
2x Seeker Missiles 75cm AT6+ Guided Missiles

same as skyray, but fixed 90? forward.

Reasoning:
- Manta must provide full support to operating hunter cadres (including AA support)
- Each time I roll to hit for that lonely tracer, I ask me what's this for?


Well, do something worthwhile about it, or alternatively remove the 1xtracer missile alltogether to clean things up.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:09 am 
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From experience with the OGBM list, I can say that telrporting titans is a bad idea.  The amount of precision allowed by Teleporting over Planetfall allows for a lot of powerful and very difficult to counter tactics.  

Basically, if you price it appropriately for being able to teleport, it woudl be too expe3nsive to use in any way except by teleporting it.

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Steele
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 8:55 am 
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I do agree that teleport is out of question, as it is too powerful an ability. As for the free planetfall: Does this turn the Spaceship Planetfall rather obsolete? At least for the Manta? CS?s proposal of not interfering with regular PF seems to assume this. So I could planetfall the same turn as , let?s say, a Marine Force in the first turn. Possibly inducting crossfire for overwatch shots against the marines? Tough thing!

Let?s be cautious in letting in slip this kind of rule too fast.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 9:38 am 
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Well, not if you want all the pin point attacks from the space craft. Also only the space craft will block another races spaceship from turning up.

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Steele
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 10:11 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 15 May 2006 (10:38))
Well, not if you want all the pin point attacks from the space craft. Also only the space craft will block another races spaceship from turning up.

Well, if you noticed it, I spoke of the Planetfall via Spaceship. Not the attacks from them. For the SR - Marines would outbid every other Race under normal circumstances - now with this kind of Rule , they may loose their main advantage - first turn air assault to some degree. Therefore my advice to beeing cautious. :/

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 10:30 am 
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Your spaceship wins if you win the initiative. Both sides can plot to come in turn 1, it just becomes who activates first.

Also, appart from having a harder time planetfalling and catching the manta, marines aren't really affected, a planetfall rarely leads to an assault against a WE, thats normally the terminators job.

Neal, the teleporting gargants and the like - did they then open fire or assault? The Manta isn't much of an assault machine.

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Steele
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:46 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 15 May 2006 (11:30))
Your spaceship wins if you win the initiative. Both sides can plot to come in turn 1, it just becomes who activates first.

Also, appart from having a harder time planetfalling and catching the manta, marines aren't really affected, a planetfall rarely leads to an assault against a WE, thats normally the terminators job.

Neal, the teleporting gargants and the like - did they then open fire or assault? The Manta isn't much of an assault machine.

I thought that the Strategy Rating Determines the Sequence of appearance? But I might be wrong. At least I played it that way.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:58 pm 
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Nope you have to activate as far I I know on the turn you have selected.

Re Manta again.

Two things - the missiles, would it not fit its fluff to replace the AA missile with another tracer missile?
And this thing shoots spaceships on its own - why can't it have markerlights (plus goes with UFO image of the beams of light stabbing down :) ).

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Steele
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:35 pm 
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As Marines have the highest SR it is unlikely that they go second either. So the activation therefore is a no brainer with ini 1+ for Strike Cruiser and the 3rd Turn Battle Barge.:D

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Steele

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Steele
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:38 pm 
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And Yes. Markerlights would be very funny. But with the "Regular" 30cm Range I think it is somewhat deplaced on a Support Craft. At least 45cm would be better, given the assumed high altitude a.s.o.

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