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Bombards
semajnollissor
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:24 pm 
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I was just wondering if bombards were worth using. It seems like the ability to ignore cover doesn't make up for the differences in the range when compared to a manticore.

Is that an accurate assessment, or am I missing something?
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:51 pm 
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90cm barrage is pretty darn far for everyone except IG.  Most armies find plenty of ways to make barrages with that range useful.  It's just not as easy as the normal IG no-brainer point-and-fire arty.
:;):

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:56 pm 
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Against an infantry army with tk weapons so the tanks hide they are great. Are the difference between damaging a mob and breaking it when in cover (and you should have 1 terrain piece per 2x1 area :) ).

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:56 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 19 April 2006 (14:51))
90cm barrage is pretty darn far for everyone except IG. ?Most armies find plenty of ways to make barrages with that range useful. ?It's just not as easy as the normal IG no-brainer point-and-fire arty.
:;):

That's quite true, but don't you think the Manticore is much more useful (not to mention powerful) than the Bombard? The Manticore has longer range and Disrupt is generally better than Ignore Cover (unless you play against Siegemasters a lot).

Not that I have a problem with that, but they both cost the same number of points... ???? Even if you consider that Disrupt and Ignore Cover are both as useful, the Manticore still seems to benefit from a longer range for free.
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:56 pm 
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@Neal

Right, which is the point. Given the army that they are in, are they really equal to the manticore? I mean, it wouldn't be an issue if they had a different point cost, but they are taken in exactly the same way as manticores are (formation size and cost). So, in practice, does the inclusion of ignore cover really balance out the loss in range?

I was just curious.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:33 pm 
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Well, Bombards are great against Tyranids!  *laugh*

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tneva82
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:41 pm 
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Well obviously it depends on amount and TYPE of terrain you play in...

But frankly there's bigger worry than bombard in the IG artirelly balance...

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:22 pm 
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Quote (tneva82 @ 19 April 2006 (15:41))
Well obviously it depends on amount and TYPE of terrain you play in...

But frankly there's bigger worry than bombard in the IG artirelly balance...

Certainly, but why is it that Bombards and Basilisks never seem to be used?

Personally, I think Bombards and Basilisks are fine the way they are, it's just that Manticores are so much more interesting for their price...
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:07 pm 
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The choice between Ignore Cover and Disrupt is going to depend on both available cover and the composition of the opposing army.

In light terrain Ignore Cover has highly limited usefulness.  Similarly, it's not a big deal against heavily armored targets though it does still increase the number of hits.

Against light targets in any sort of cover, Ignore Cover is going to be significantly better.  Ignore Cover means that not only will you hit infantry in cover more often but there is no cover save so you will kill them more often.  I'll take a kill+BM over just a BM any day.

For example, with my Orks I'd rather see Disrupt coming at me most times.  Generally speaking, shrugging off gratuitous BMs is not a big deal.  Cover still works against Disrupt by reducing the to-hit roll.  OTOH, Ignore Cover actually kills things.


That said, I think the Manticore fits the "stand and deliver" style of most IG players much better due to the range and due to the fact that AP fire (infantry in cover being most vulnerable to IC) is not hard to come by in the list.

Similarly, I think most IG players shrink from Basilisks because they are optimal when actually *gasp* in Line of Sight of the enemy.  With their range, semi-decent armor, and the fact that you can put them in cover to get a -1 to be hit, Basilisks can be durable and a significant area denial unit.  However, that's just against the grain of the kinds of people who generally like to play IG.

In summary, there might be a slight balance issue in IG arty, but I think play style is just about as important.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:08 pm 
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They all have their place. For instance basilisks are superior in companies, bombards good specialists and manticores good one shot weapons (rare opponent allows them to fire twice!).

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dafrca
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:09 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 19 April 2006 (09:08))
They all have their place. For instance basilisks are superior in companies, bombards good specialists and manticores good one shot weapons (rare opponent allows them to fire twice!).

I think Chris gave a good summary of how I see them as well.

I was playing one guy who used bugs mostly and I found them very useful against bugs.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:13 pm 
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Remember Bombards are balanced for tournament play. Tournament terrain should be reasonably plentiful according to the rules. Bombards can work very well in these conditions.

Around here infantry hordes are often popular choices, and consequently Bombards are also a popular choice.

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primarch
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:19 am 
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Hi!

Yup, then again in netepic they have special advantages to make them useful. :;):

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Markconz
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:30 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 20 April 2006 (02:19))
Hi!

Yup, then again in netepic they have special advantages to make them useful. :;):

Primarch

They have special advantages in EA as well - specifically blasting apart targets in cover in a satisfying fashion :D

What differentiates them from other guard Arty in netepic?

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Bombards
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:31 pm 
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Okay, thanks all.

I guess I generally undervalue the ignore cover ability, though I see how it can be quite effective. I prefer to keep as far away from the enemy as possible, so I guess Manticores just suit my tastes better. While I realize that 90cm is a respectible range in this game, I basically break arty weapon down into 2 groups: weapons that can hit the enemy deployment zone at the beginning of turn 1, and those that can't.
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