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Tau lander?
Nerroth	Post subject: Tau lander? Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:05 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	Hi! I have been thinking about how the Grenadiers get their Mechanised Infantry and Russ companies, Valks+Vultures and super-heavies from the fleet to the surface, since a Chimera, Russ or Valkyrie may not fit into a Manta (plus I want to kee pthe Manta out of the Gue'senshi list), let alone a Baneblade! This seems a point for the T'au list too, as the Narwhal and Dragonet (my thought for a name for the Dragonfish - it's another way of saying the fish's name anyway) aren't planetfallers, and it's questionable whether Mantas are used to ferry AVs (and Tetras and Piranhas, for that matter) 4 at a time to the surface - although perhaps that's intentional, that the Tau would use the current planetfalling setup to establish a beach-head, then gradually ferry down the rest of the force using Mantas (this still doesn't explain the WEs, though) The way I see it, there are a few options. For Hunter Cadres: *Assume that the Tau land Courier transports, or some other larger starship(like the cargo lander which was modified into the Kass'l escort from the metal fleet), to offload those T+Ps, AVs and WEs onto the surface. *Assume that the Narwhal and Dragonet are dropped from orbit, but only after a beach-head has been established, not into active combat situations (hence the lack of Planetfall in the Epic rules) and the AVs need to be landed 4 at a time per Manta. *Assume that there is some sort of starship-to-surface lander that the Tau use to land heavy units onto the surface - a modified Manta or Moray, perhaps with a giant grav clamp or two underneath to carry the WEs, or space ordinarily taken up by things like infantry, those big Railcannon (and maybe the Ion Phalanxes too) given over for vehicles. In the third one, I'd say the Moray would only really suit carrying Tetras and Piranhas (You could perhaps fit 6 Tetras and 4 Piranhas into each ship if you drop the Railcannon/Ion Phalanx) and the Manta could take 2 superheavies in its main bay, or grav clamped below the main hangar bay, and if we gut the heavy weapons we could make room for 10 or 12 AVs on board, enough for a HH Cadre + extra, or maybe - not to mention 10 Leman Russes, or 4 Stingrays with 4 Valkyries and 4 Vultures! We can assume that the infantry would be sitting in the Devilfish/Chimerae/Valkyries during the drop. So, we could include a third option for the Moray which would turn it into a drop craft for a Tetra Contingent with 4 added Piranhas in place of the heavy weapon options. Also, for the Manta we can drop the Heavy Railcannon - and probably the two Ion Phalanxes to boot - and add room for two Orca-size (or three Baneblade size) superheavies and 12 AVs. Thoughts? Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Shinnentai	Post subject: Tau lander? Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:32 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:52 pm Posts: 54	I'd definately say that there would be situations requiring a much larger dropship than the Manta for planetfall. Sure the Tau don't operate on quite the same scale as the Imperium, or have such heavy equipment, but as you say, the Manta just doesn't suffice for armoured cadres. So although it seems a little large, I think the Courier transport would be a good bet for non-combat landings, especially for Gue'senshi forces. Or perhaps a Merchant outfitted to carry Imperial landers?
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Nerroth	Post subject: Tau lander? Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:52 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	Hmm, my plan was to keep the Gue'senshi attached to the larger Qath'fannor capital ships (Protector and Custodian, possibly Hero too), there are still relatively few regiments from Kleist, Phaeb and Garrus in service beyond the home system, and putting them on a Courier seems like too much of a risk - Tau wouldn't put Hunter Cadres in Couriers for that reason! Perhaps converted Mantas and Morays could be used in situations where that gap needs to be filled on the surface in the face of heavy opposition (for Tau and Gue'senshi forces) and if space superiority if secured, a Courier could be docked to the larger cap ship and used to ferry large numbers of heavy units up and down. So, the first planetfall would be carried out by Orcas, Tetra-Morays, normal Mantas and armour-dropping Mantas (supported by rail- and ion-Morays, Barracudas, Tigersharks and orbital pinpoints and missile salvoes) from Custodians, Protectors and Heroes. While the campaign unfolds, the Orcas, AD-Mantas and T-Morays make shuttle runs to bring more formations to the surface, while the regular Manta can either do the same or stay planetside to offer heavy fire support where needed. If space superiority is assured, and a safe LZ established, then the Couriers can be used to land munitions and supplies (as well as additional Hunter Cadres/Regiments transferred from the larger vessels, if necessary). How does this sound? Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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HecklerMD	Post subject: Tau lander? Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:45 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201	I think we can safely assume that a Manta can be configured to carry wider combinations of units that we use in Epic, and perhaps its the ability to offload quickly and under fire that is the limiting factor on how its used in game. IE:  A Manta could probablly hold 8-10 vehicles (Devilfish/HH, ect) and assorted troops, but can only load/offload 4 + suits and drones in a reasonable time (under fire), more and they expose the Manta and the troops inside to excess risk. Under safer conditions, a Manta can probablly carry more (Diverting power from Deflector to anti-grav units to compensate) and I wouldent put it past the Tau to just land thier transports and offload a whole lot of HCs at once. The Forge World BFG Tau Courier Transport looks like it could handle planetfall, given the Taus level of technology.
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Tastyfish	Post subject: Tau lander? Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:49 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:35 pm Posts: 120	Looks like all of the Kor'or'vesh ships can probably handle an atmosphere, given far as the Tau are concerned the Manta is probably part of it. Seeing as all of the capital ships have launchbays I don't see why though wouldn't enter low orbit/high atmosphere and let the various grav craft leave through the Manta bays. However its not a particularly safe thing to do on a battlefield, hence the superheavies not being orbital landers. The other older option would be to use the Merchant's cargo containers, detach them in orbit and let them make their own way down. Pretty sure they mention that the cargo containers come off and are exchanged between ships/stations etc. Lander varient doesn't seem out of the question, like a fat mega-Orca
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Shinnentai

Post subject: Tau lander? Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:33 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:52 pm Posts: 54

IE:  A Manta could probablly hold 8-10 vehicles (Devilfish/HH, ect) and assorted troops, but can only load/offload 4 + suits and drones in a reasonable time (under fire), more and they expose the Manta and the troops inside to excess risk. Hmm, admitedly I don't have the model in front of me, but from Forgeworld's pics of the Epic Manta, it does look pretty hard-pressed to carry the 4 tanks, let along 8-10. Seeing as all of the capital ships have launchbays I don't see why though wouldn't enter low orbit/high atmosphere and let the various grav craft leave through the Manta bays. However its not a particularly safe thing to do on a battlefield, hence the superheavies not being orbital landers.

Don't anti-grav generators only support the vehicles upto a certain height? At the altitude you're talking about, wouldn't the vehicles just plummet to the ground? Sure they'd be slowed momentarily as they reached their anti-grav generator's effective height, but I don't think that would be enough to prevent them from impacting the ground.