Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines |
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dafrca
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines  Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:52 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 30 2005 June,12:12) | | For the record, I have noted several times on the playtest boards that I have serious doubts that it will ever be possible to accurately balance Titan Legion and Gargant Mob lists against the more traditional armies. |
You, me, and a few others. 
dafrca
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primarch
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:12 pm |
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Hi!
Why is this so? Is it an inherent flaw in the Epic A basic design?
Under second edition, titans fit in quite well, while there were bugs, titans had their own rules but played well with other units.
Why can a titan heavy army not be balanced versus a non titan army in epic A?
Primarch
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dafrca
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:59 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 30 2005 June,15:12) | Why is this so? Is it an inherent flaw in the Epic A basic design?
Why can a titan heavy army not be balanced versus a non titan army in epic A? |
Keep in mind this is my opinion and not "fact".
I think it has to do with the lumping of all "Larger then tanks" together into only one category called "War Engine?. Then doing the rules so all War Engines are treated the same.
What EpicA needed was a third category called "Titan" or some such. Thus you could have had rules that apply to Titans only, the way you have rules that are War Engine only today.
If they had done this, then you could have costed the Titans in such a way that they could be in balance with the rest of the units/armies. Why, because it could/would become more of an OGRE style battle. The one (or small number) of very powerful formations against a larger number of weaker formations.
dafrca
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Tas
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:11 am |
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What you say makes sense Dafrca, and ties in with what we have seen with the evolution of the rules over the past few years as well.
Maybe the third category of "Titan" is the way ahead for AT3. Then Titan class rules (such as specific targeting, to hit location resolution, split fire, Titan Battle honours etc) can be (re)introduced for players who want them.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:23 am |
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I thought the E:A rules did a pretty good job with listing and stating old models and Titan weapons. We never had trouble with Titans in our old rule system. Strongly based on SM1 ... From what I see of the E:A Titan rules, they look good. But I have not played a game so I'm just going on what I read and see. Of course, you could always do what we did and will do, is make the rules suit your tastes. Regardless of the official Dogma ... 
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Tas
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:32 am |
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L4 - the problemw ith Titans in EA is that they are treated as just another superheavy tank (or other war engine) with a efw more guns. The detail in the older systems is gone, so you loose a lot of the individuality that made them fun to play IMHO.
Things you will miss - split firing, specific targeting, To Hit charts, detailed critical hits (not the 2-3 line ones they have now).
I think this is one of the things I dislike most about EA - though there arent many of them to be fair - and I can see why its been done. I still think there is a definte niche for AT3 type rules to bring those details back for thosw who want them. If you dont, then EA as it is plays well.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:45 am |
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I understand that, Tas as I started with SM1/AT1 as you know ! I have been reviewing the E:A rules, including Titans and yes compared to the previous iterations, the Titan rules are a bit bland or generic. But since we only played with one or two Titans per side (the old SM1 25% rule), we kind of saw them as a "Landship"/weapons platform ... so I guess the rules appear to work for us. I even got out my SM/AT1 Titan data cards we use and the current stats should work ... We loved the detail of the earlier systems. But sometimes it became ungainly. So as always do what works for you !
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Tas
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:51 am |
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Sorry, dude - didnt mean to lecture you at all!
Yes, it can be a ittle ungainly, but I figure it was worth the time as they were such a major investment, in $, time painting and in points!
Plus if you only have a few on each side (we did the same) then the toal cost in time is minimal.
Hey - you should "do what works for you" regardless!
(thats twice in 2 days I've paraphrased you! )
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:16 am |
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No I didn't think you were lecturing ... just clarifying your point. If anyone can lecture me ... you can ... 
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dafrca
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:28 am |
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| Quote (Tas @ 30 2005 June,20:32) | | L4 - the problemw ith Titans in EA is that they are treated as just another superheavy tank (or other war engine) with a efw more guns. ? |
I believe this is a major reason why a Titan Heavy army would be unbalanced. Rather then a super large ?Fort? with many guns, it is just a very powerful tank with lots of firepower.
If you allowed it to split fire for example, then one must ask, why not the Baneblade. This is where the argument headed every time. JJ just laid out a final opinion and that was that. No split fire.
This could describe many of the other issues as well.
dafrca
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dafrca
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:32 am |
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| Quote (Tas @ 30 2005 June,20:51) | | Yes, it can be a ittle ungainly, but I figure it was worth the time as they were such a major investment, in $, time painting and in points! |
Interesting, I had one person on the Offical Forum who would justify all his arguments with a simular point.
"If I have spent the money and time collecting all these and painting them, they should be more powerful..."
Too funny.
dafrca
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Tas
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:44 am |
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Similar in that I think they are worth the time invested in playing them correctly, but that is completely skewed logic!
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Tas
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:34 pm |
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| Quote (dafrca @ 01 2005 July,05:32) | Interesting, I had one person on the Offical Forum who would justify all his arguments with a simular point.
"If I have spent the money and time collecting all these and painting them, they should be more powerful..." |
I think I know who you are talking about...
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:55 pm |
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| Quote (primarch @ 30 2005 June,23:12) | Hi!
Why is this so? Is it an inherent flaw in the Epic A basic design?
Under second edition, titans fit in quite well, while there were bugs, titans had their own rules but played well with other units.
Why can a titan heavy army not be balanced versus a non titan army in epic A?
Primarch |
The rules play just fine, and the titans seem to be balanced with respect to toughness and the damage they can inflict. The WE rules are smooth and despite the inability to split fire, I rarely see firepower "wasted" due to overkill.
The real problem is that the GT (General Tournament) Scenario is based on taking and holding ground for the most part. Titans are unusual in that their mix of toughness/firepower/area control is very different than any traditional units. They concentrate a large amount of toughness and a moderate amount of firepower into a very small area compared to similar points in other units.
As I'm sure you can easily recognize, for a scenario based on controlling territory, that can wreak havoc on play balance.
At the low end of the point range, the lack of area control gives them a serious disadvantage in holding territory and opponents just avoid them and capture the objectives to win. At the high end, where they are numerous enough to make up for the area control shortcoming, they have a significant advantage due to their toughness and the inability of most units to threaten them significantly.
In the middle range (where most tournaments are played) it seems to be heavily influenced by whether or not the opposing army has the proper gear to damage a titan, i.e. army composition is probably as or more important than tactics. If the opposing army took enough units that can seriously threaten a titan, they will probably win. If not, the titans have a serious advantage.
Now, in concept, that would be a fine idea. I think strategic choices like army comp should be very much part of the game. The problem is that a "take all comers" tournament army can only afford to allocate a modest amount of points to anti-titan kinds of units because most of what they face will be traditional forces.
Hence, I think strongly that there will always be a balance problem with TL/Gargant armies in situations with "blind" army selection.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Desert Ferrin to fight the Marines Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:22 pm |
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Yes, if you know you're going to use Titans in a game (we always didn't, and used the SM1 rule of only 25% could be used on Titans and Off-board support, if we did ...), you have to be savvy enough to use your Titan(s) to smash his. ?Bring on Deathstrikes and weapons like that, + off-board support to stop his Titan ... IMO. Now with Aircraft, based on E:A rules, we would go to 33% (ie.1/3) of your TBFL on Titans, Off-Board(in E:A this is equal to Spaceraft) + aircraft ...
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